I have this discussion with some folks and they tend to condemn me for not caring about the poor and disadvantaged. Although I don['t struggle with my premise and belief regarding the immorality of welfare, I cannot come to understand the belief that we are ordained to give to the poor. We need to provide opportunities to the poor and disadvantaged and then I think it's up to them to move forward. Nature is not kind but it is honest.

help yourself,,,

When one argues from emotion and not logic they cannot concede any point even in the face of persuasive argument. It's like a boss of mine once said: "Don't confuse the situation with facts!"

Is there any validity in the argument that government support to individuals leads to a chronic condition for some individuals that makes them slaves to the fiscal support provided by government programs? To be there is a moral consideration that demeaning "work capable" individuals to dependence on others for long term support is in fact immoral. Are we enslaving folks through our zeal to provide?

Let's do away with electing any representative or senator and totally outlaw lobbying. States would conduct a lottery for each representative and senator and send them to the hill for 6 years (stagger the lottery to ensure some continuity). There would have to be a vetting process for the lottery "winners" that is reasonable. Pay 'em well and let them have a good retirement. It would possibly eliminate the obsession for campaign money and it certainly would do away with partisan politics. Oh yeah, anyone caught in any bribe type activity would be hanged immediately.

Am I the only one confused? If there was a park ranger was she just there because she didn't have anything to do on her furlough? Or was she there in an official capacity as an employee of the Park Service? If she was there only as a furloughed employee she really didn't have any authority...if she was there as an employee she was there to ensure access to the memorial? I agree the closing of these memorials is a childish act meant to "punish" the masses. I wonder what the masses would agree on as to what parts of the government they would find as being nonessential enough the shut down? I wonder....

Boy...ain't that the truth! I think Multnomah, Washington, Clackamas, Linn, and Lane counties, should be tossed out of Oregon. Maybe we can trade them for some counties in California?

Suggestions to improve in post processing efforts?

It's all about leadership. President Obama is clueless as to how to be an effective leader and has surrounded himself with unqualified and "political baiting" advisers and staff. I

[quote=wchs1961]I don't normally respond to the political arguments on this forum as most people seem to ignore facts if the facts disagree with their own preconceived ideas. The fact is that the current government shutdown rests squarely on the shoulders of the republicans. The "Affordable Healthcare Act" (Obamacare) is law. If you want to change the law, there are ways to do that in the framework of the constitution.....amendments to the law or repeal of the law. Demanding that the law not be funded as a condition of funding the government is not an acceptable method. It is "hostage taking" pure and simple![/quote

Pretty one sided observation. Good leaders don't antagonize their troops intentionally as they understand it takes the sum total to be the most effective in accomplishing the mission. Although the Republicans are the catalyst in the current government shutdown, I place the primary cause on the dismal leadership of President Obama. This event is not an overnight deal. It has been building for the past 4.5 years and the AHCA is the shining example of how underhanded and backroom politics got us to this point. The President should understand that he is not the dictator and he really has limited powers to creating law. His actions in the past 4.5 years clearly demonstrates his lack of understanding his role as the President and he listens too much to the voices that surround him, who, by the way appear to be even more unqualified than he is.

barracading the memorial sites on the Mall in Washington DC is an obvious political attempt and dishonest effort to skew responsibility for the shut down.

Maybe we'll find out what services we receive are "essential" and those that are not? Fasting is usually beneficial for one's health...

Two different comparisons as far as I'm concerned. The president set the stage early on with his ego motivated public statements demeaning Republicans as individuals as well as a group. BOH continually displays his lack of comprehending the role of a leader. He falls short in this regard in a very significant manner.

It's "tough love" for the masses. No pain: no gain. Bring it on!

You have to admidt the games they play are interesting to watch...but I suppose so was Rome when it was on fire.