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W/R Histograms
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Jul 19, 2013 07:34:34   #
djtravels Loc: Georgia boy now
 
My comment is "SO WHAT?" It's the picture that counts for me.
If the picture is good the histogram must be OK. So I don't look at a histogram, which doesn't show me a picture. And I did learn well my x's and y's.

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Jul 19, 2013 07:44:00   #
winterrose Loc: Kyneton, Victoria, Australia
 
djtravels wrote:
My comment is "SO WHAT?" It's the picture that counts for me.
If the picture is good the histogram must be OK. So I don't look at a histogram, which doesn't show me a picture. And I did learn well my x's and y's.


And my comment is "Ladies and gentlemen! I bring you djtravels, another dribbler with nothing intelligent to contribute".

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Jul 19, 2013 07:44:46   #
turp77 Loc: Connecticut, Plainfield
 
Very well written Rob! Looking forward to your next post. You know the old saying "How many photographers does it take to take one photograph, 1001, one to take the photo and 1000 to tell you how you should have taken it"
winterrose wrote:
It appears that there is a degree of misunderstanding of what a histogram actually is and exactly what information it displays.

I will reference this to jpeg images for the sake of this thread and for all those ready to correct me on unhelpful technical details please allow me some licence in order to keep this as understandable for as many people as possible.

A histogram is an x,y representation shown as a series of columns representing black on the left brightness with a relative luminance value of 0 and white at the extreme right with its luminance value of 255 while the space between is filled with the remaining 254 columns representing the luminance values of all the shades graduating from black through to white.

The 18% much talked about is “middle grey” which, of course, falls in the centre of the histogram and holds the luminance value of 127.

The important thing to remember here is that any histogram is not an absolute. Any given histogram is tightly related to a particular parametric circumstance. What that means is that a histogram display in a camera displays the range of luminousities within the limits of the dynamic range of that particular camera.

If one camera has a dynamic range of twelve f/stops and another is capable of six and both were used to photograph a tonal sweep, say a surface with an luminance range of fifteen equivalent f/stops in sunlight with exposure set for an 18% grey card then both histograms would look much the same even though camera (a) recorded six stops either side of the middle whilst camera (b) only managed three.

The histogram on both cameras would show that values were recorded in all the columns 0-255 because in these cases the information they display is limited to the actual dynamic range of each sensor.

The 6 f/stop sensor in this case would record as black a luminance value which the 12 f/stop sensor would record as 9% grey.

Likewise the 6 f/stopper would record a shade as being white whereas the 12 would only record the same luminance value as being around 60% grey.

In other words the 12 stop sensor would in one shot record the same range as the 6 stop sensor could if shot as a +3,0,-3 f/stop HDR.

The 12 stopper would have twice as much shadow and highlight detail even though the histograms would probably look much the same.

That’s probably enough for now, I’ll let this sink in and settle for a bit before I continue. Rob.
It appears that there is a degree of misunderstand... (show quote)

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Jul 19, 2013 07:57:06   #
A10 Loc: Southern Indiana
 
I appreciate your thread. I look at photography from a compositional point of view more then technical. Your explanation does help me take a better photo the first time. Keep writing.
winterrose wrote:
I agree, ziggykor, I have tried before with a thread about lumination/illumination and other subjects but people seemed only willing to make fun or just ignore. Ah well, their loss.

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Jul 19, 2013 08:02:12   #
cz3056 Loc: Somewhere in Michigan or Texas
 
[quote=winterrose]It appears that there is a degree of misunderstanding of what a histogram actually is and exactly what information it displays.

Thanks for the help. Hope I can put it to good use.

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Jul 19, 2013 08:03:36   #
Terrymac Loc: LONDON U.K.
 
Rob you cannot educate pork, instead please give us more of your descriptions of loose bits in Canon cameras. I love em.

winterrose wrote:
And my comment is "Ladies and gentlemen! I bring you djtravels, another dribbler with nothing intelligent to contribute".

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Jul 19, 2013 08:07:00   #
winterrose Loc: Kyneton, Victoria, Australia
 
Terrymac wrote:
Rob you cannot educate pork, instead please give us more of your descriptions of loose bits in Canon cameras. I love em.


Am I still allowed to? Are you sure?

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Jul 19, 2013 08:29:47   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
The Histogram importantly displays the result of Exposure from the three main variables in a digital photograph: Aperture, Shutter Speed, and ISO.

These three sources describe and explain the Histogram:

http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2012/understanding_histograms.shtml?WT.mc_id=EM1203EO04004&RID=1-5LTYHR&CON=1-C8L-217&PRO=&CID=1-5FK2PA#showAll

http://www.digital-slr-guide.com/how-to-read-a-histogram.html

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/understanding-histograms.shtml

Beached Boat, Portugal
Beached Boat, Portugal...

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Jul 19, 2013 08:36:18   #
big-guy Loc: Peterborough Ontario Canada
 
A mechanic does not go to work with only a single tool and the histogram is only a single tool, one of many that we as photographers have at our disposal. We need to use all (or at least a good selection) of them to create the best possible vision that is in our mind before we click the shutter.

Winterrose is doing a fine job in his explanations and I see several people trying their hand at one up-manship. I suggest everyone take (or leave) what they need from the posts and worry about their own photographic skills. After over 30 years in this business I am still learning new things and adapting some old viewpoints and habits. Just because your viewpoint is different doesn't make it wrong or right, just a different point of view.

I'm going out to make some photographs. Care to join me?

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Jul 19, 2013 08:44:25   #
Brenda IS Scottish Loc: GOLDEN Colorado
 
We just had some interesting reading on histograms in the book club this last month. If anyone wants more information on histograms, head over to the book club and see the reading choices for July, (top of the page) we have a few links to articles on histograms.

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Jul 19, 2013 08:52:51   #
Hypno Loc: Miami
 
DGK Color Tools DGK-XL Extra Large Size 3 Card Set- 4-5 Inches Balance Card 18 Percent Digital Gray Card for Digital with Carry Lanyard-White
Sold on Amazon. Could be that what they call 18% card is really 13%,

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Jul 19, 2013 08:55:15   #
Larrie Loc: NE Ohio
 
winterrose wrote:
Better explain yourself about that one Larrie.


Review your last dozen post or replies. It's fairly apperent

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Jul 19, 2013 09:11:53   #
wowbmw Loc: Grant, Colorado
 
Hey! Count me in as one of your supporters. Looking forward to more info from you on this topic. One thing I would like to learn is the relationship between the histogram and printing. Sometimes I note that although the histogram shows detail in the darks and lights, my printer does not print them. I shoot raw and print with a calibrated Epson 3880. I'm careful in PP to be sure there is detail but am sometimes disappointed. To remedy this I now back off of both side by about 5 numbers. What do you think could be going on?
winterrose wrote:
Pleeeease.... I knew this would happen!!!

I asked that people give some latitude so we don't all get bogged down in the detail. This subject is confusing enough for so many so let's just please stick to the subject CONCEPTUALLY and we can all build on people's knowledge with a minimum of confusion.
The "13%" to which you refer is actually 12% and is the level set as middle grey as the median sensitivity of the sensor to compensate for the non-linear way the sensor reacts to a linear progression in light levels so that relative brightness levels recorded by the sensor more accurately mimic the reaction to light of human sight.
I used 18% not because I do not know what I am talking about but because I was referring to the reflectance characteristics of standard objects which is not the same as parameters selected by designers for sensor calibration.
I hope this clears that up. Regards, Rob.
Pleeeease.... I knew this would happen!!! br br ... (show quote)

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Jul 19, 2013 09:22:32   #
winterrose Loc: Kyneton, Victoria, Australia
 
Larrie wrote:
Review your last dozen post or replies. It's fairly apperent


I really couldn't be bothered, thanks....(P.S. What is an apperent? Must be something common in Ohio...can somebody please provide me with edification on that one?)

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Jul 19, 2013 09:36:34   #
GordonB. Loc: St. Petersburg, Fl.
 
Once again, we suffer from people who are either too lazy or simply refuse to edit the original information in their reply. This has been discussed before particularly when the original was very long and not just 2 or 3 lines. It simply isn't difficult to edit a long post down to just a few leading lines.
I am referring to those of you who felt it necessary to quote the entire message originally sent by 'winterrose' in your reply.

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