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W/R Histograms
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Jul 19, 2013 09:43:26   #
Poison Ivey Loc: Mtn Brook, AL
 
I am so ignorant that I hate to even respond...when I want the exact White Balance, I point my Digital camera lens toward my "White Balance" card of 12% Gray and hit Set to obtain a Custom White Balance.. In film days I took readings off 18% Gray Cards.
I do appreciate your bringing up this subject of Histogram!

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Jul 19, 2013 09:44:08   #
Poison Ivey Loc: Mtn Brook, AL
 
I am so ignorant that I hate to even respond...when I want the exact White Balance, I point my Digital camera lens toward my "White Balance" card of 12% Gray and hit Set to obtain a Custom White Balance.. In film days I took readings off 18% Gray Cards.
I do appreciate your bringing up this subject of Histogram!

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Jul 19, 2013 09:57:53   #
winterrose Loc: Kyneton, Victoria, Australia
 
Poison Ivey wrote:
I am so ignorant that I hate to even respond...when I want the exact White Balance, I point my Digital camera lens toward my "White Balance" card of 12% Gray and hit Set to obtain a Custom White Balance.. In film days I took readings off 18% Gray Cards.
I do appreciate your bringing up this subject of Histogram!


I appreciate your post, but so far we are looking at histograms with reference to exposure taking into account the total luminance of all three channels combined. What you mentioned is certainly relevant as a part of determining correct camera settings and which we can build in later. Cheers, Rob.

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Jul 19, 2013 10:11:05   #
wowbmw Loc: Grant, Colorado
 
Think you mean me. Sorry! When I first started with this forum, I was told to be sure to quote the original post in my reply. Must have missed the discussion about editing down the original. Did not think about doing this until I read your remarks. Won't happen again to be sure. Thanks for letting us know. [quote=GordonB.]Once again, we suffer from people who are either too lazy or simply refuse to edit the original information in their reply.

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Jul 19, 2013 10:17:54   #
Dlevon Loc: New Jersey
 
ziggykor wrote:
I often am amazed that when anyone posts something here that provides an explanation to people, some idiot has to come along and attempt to make the original poster out as being horribly incorrect. I guess that's why I've stopped sharing as what works for me is so obviously wrong to all the experts out there!



You hit the nail on the head, exactly!

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Jul 19, 2013 10:24:49   #
winterrose Loc: Kyneton, Victoria, Australia
 
[quote=wowbmw]Think you mean me. Sorry! When I first started with this forum, I was told to be sure to quote the original post in my reply. Must have missed the discussion about editing down the original. Did not think about doing this until I read your remarks. Won't happen again to be sure. Thanks for letting us know.
GordonB. wrote:
Once again, we suffer from people who are either too lazy or simply refuse to edit the original information in their reply.


It's OK, don't be too fussed. It's just that sometimes people make comments about other people's comments and nobody knows what they are going on about! Cheers, Rob.

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Jul 19, 2013 10:27:15   #
windshoppe Loc: Arizona
 
Unfortunately, this thread appeared at the top of my topic list this morning. It's like getting out of bed and walking into a room of squabbling politicians. Maybe I'll come back to it after my 3rd cup of coffee.

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Jul 19, 2013 10:31:27   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
May I beg to differ. The Histogram does show the picture, although from an Exposure values view.

In the Histogram, the photographer can immediately see if a given Exposure has captured an image with, for example, the Highlights captured within the dynamic range of the camera sensor. For this purpose, the Histogram displays the image exposure values from dark to light.

Note that a cameraman's perception can influence the actuality of the exposure of a photograph, to compensate for its deficiencies. This perceptual adjustment goes with the human condition.

The Histogram graphs and displays the image exposure values in objective, graphic terms, thereby eliminating the subjective human factor from the image exposure information.

From what this UHH responder has learned from reading the history of photography, all informed and skilled photographers dwell on the quality of the exposure of their photographs, and try to achieve the best exposure given the circumstances.

Today, in the digital photography era, we have the Histogram as an invaluable aid to seeing and evaluating instantly the exposure values of a photograph.
djtravels wrote:
My comment is "SO WHAT?" It's the picture that counts for me.
If the picture is good the histogram must be OK. So I don't look at a histogram, which doesn't show me a picture. And I did learn well my x's and y's.

Outcropping, Canyonlands NP
Outcropping, Canyonlands NP...

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Jul 19, 2013 10:38:02   #
LoneRangeFinder Loc: Left field
 
anotherview wrote:
May I beg to differ. The Histogram does show the picture, although from an Exposure values view.

In the Histogram, the photographer can immediately see if a given Exposure has captured an image with, for example, the Highlights captured within the dynamic range of the camera sensor. For this purpose, the Histogram displays the image exposure values from dark to light.

Note that a cameraman's perception can influence the actuality of the exposure of a photograph, to compensate for its deficiencies. This perceptual adjustment goes with the human condition.

The Histogram graphs and displays the image exposure values in objective, graphic terms, thereby eliminating the subjective human factor from the image exposure information.

From what this UHH responder has learned from reading the history of photography, all informed and skilled photographers dwell on the quality of the exposure of their photographs, and try to achieve the best exposure given the circumstances.

Today, in the digital photography era, we have the Histogram as an invaluable aid to seeing and evaluating instantly the exposure values of a photograph.
May I beg to differ. The Histogram does show the ... (show quote)


Concur.

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Jul 19, 2013 10:41:23   #
davidcaley Loc: Utah
 
My reading of Kodak literature in 50's & 60's the 18 % Gray card was close to the reflection was best estimate of Caucasian skin and to be used in setting portrait exposure. In absence of the card Kodak recommended taking a light meter reading of you palm to estimate best exposure.

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Jul 19, 2013 10:46:24   #
LoneRangeFinder Loc: Left field
 
davidcaley wrote:
My reading of Kodak literature in 50's & 60's the 18 % Gray card was close to the reflection was best estimate of Caucasian skin and to be used in setting portrait exposure. In absence of the card Kodak recommended taking a light meter reading of you palm to estimate best exposure.


My recollection was adjust the "palm reading" by one stop. But of course skin tones differ widely.

Remember the exposure guidelines that came with every roll of film?

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Jul 19, 2013 11:09:45   #
spiderbob
 
There is a lot more of us that read what you say and take it is as we will. I for one learn from all this information regardless on what others are interjecting. I choose the information that I'm going to use and it more times than not is the info that is most widely accepted. The rest is there in the back of my mind and I may or may not use it down the line. So please do not stop sharing your info, as it is read and it is used. I don't post a lot, but I read everything.

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Jul 19, 2013 11:11:13   #
doduce Loc: Holly Springs NC
 
winterrose wrote:
It appears that there is a degree of misunderstanding of what a histogram actually is and exactly what information it displays.

I will reference this to jpeg images for the sake of this thread and for all those ready to correct me on unhelpful technical details please allow me some licence in order to keep this as understandable for as many people as possible.

A histogram is an x,y representation shown as a series of columns representing black on the left brightness with a relative luminance value of 0 and white at the extreme right with its luminance value of 255 while the space between is filled with the remaining 254 columns representing the luminance values of all the shades graduating from black through to white.

The 18% much talked about is “middle grey” which, of course, falls in the centre of the histogram and holds the luminance value of 127.

The important thing to remember here is that any histogram is not an absolute. Any given histogram is tightly related to a particular parametric circumstance. What that means is that a histogram display in a camera displays the range of luminousities within the limits of the dynamic range of that particular camera.

If one camera has a dynamic range of twelve f/stops and another is capable of six and both were used to photograph a tonal sweep, say a surface with an luminance range of fifteen equivalent f/stops in sunlight with exposure set for an 18% grey card then both histograms would look much the same even though camera (a) recorded six stops either side of the middle whilst camera (b) only managed three.

The histogram on both cameras would show that values were recorded in all the columns 0-255 because in these cases the information they display is limited to the actual dynamic range of each sensor.

The 6 f/stop sensor in this case would record as black a luminance value which the 12 f/stop sensor would record as 9% grey.

Likewise the 6 f/stopper would record a shade as being white whereas the 12 would only record the same luminance value as being around 60% grey.

In other words the 12 stop sensor would in one shot record the same range as the 6 stop sensor could if shot as a +3,0,-3 f/stop HDR.

The 12 stopper would have twice as much shadow and highlight detail even though the histograms would probably look much the same.

That’s probably enough for now, I’ll let this sink in and settle for a bit before I continue. Rob.
It appears that there is a degree of misunderstand... (show quote)


Good post. But sink in it must. It will take me a couple of times through the words to understand the implications, in other words, the "so what" factor. At the end of the day, we are somewhat constrained by out kit and work around or exploit the capabilities/limitations. All part of the challenge and fun.

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Jul 19, 2013 11:36:22   #
nikonshooter Loc: Spartanburg, South Carolina
 
winterrose wrote:
It appears that there is a degree of misunderstanding of what a histogram actually is and exactly what information it displays.

I will reference this to jpeg images for the sake of this thread and for all those ready to correct me on unhelpful technical details please allow me some licence in order to keep this as understandable for as many people as possible.

A histogram is an x,y representation shown as a series of columns representing black on the left brightness with a relative luminance value of 0 and white at the extreme right with its luminance value of 255 while the space between is filled with the remaining 254 columns representing the luminance values of all the shades graduating from black through to white.

The 18% much talked about is “middle grey” which, of course, falls in the centre of the histogram and holds the luminance value of 127.

The important thing to remember here is that any histogram is not an absolute. Any given histogram is tightly related to a particular parametric circumstance. What that means is that a histogram display in a camera displays the range of luminousities within the limits of the dynamic range of that particular camera.

If one camera has a dynamic range of twelve f/stops and another is capable of six and both were used to photograph a tonal sweep, say a surface with an luminance range of fifteen equivalent f/stops in sunlight with exposure set for an 18% grey card then both histograms would look much the same even though camera (a) recorded six stops either side of the middle whilst camera (b) only managed three.

The histogram on both cameras would show that values were recorded in all the columns 0-255 because in these cases the information they display is limited to the actual dynamic range of each sensor.

The 6 f/stop sensor in this case would record as black a luminance value which the 12 f/stop sensor would record as 9% grey.

Likewise the 6 f/stopper would record a shade as being white whereas the 12 would only record the same luminance value as being around 60% grey.

In other words the 12 stop sensor would in one shot record the same range as the 6 stop sensor could if shot as a +3,0,-3 f/stop HDR.

The 12 stopper would have twice as much shadow and highlight detail even though the histograms would probably look much the same.

That’s probably enough for now, I’ll let this sink in and settle for a bit before I continue. Rob.
It appears that there is a degree of misunderstand... (show quote)


Totally agree! We have profiled our cameras using a Sekonic 758dr.....and we also used the new Sekonic L-478 not because we were that interested in the different dynamic ranges of our cameras but to see if the two Sekonic meters produced the same results. To be sure, the dynamic ranges of Nikon DSLR's, D800e, D800, D4, D3x, D3, and D3s although close, do vary. Yet the histograms will reflect similar graphs.

For the record, the D3s, and D800 and D800e had the widest dynamic range - close to 8 stops. It doesn't take too much experience to know what to expose for when photographing a scene that has six stops of dynamic range or more.

Thanks to Ansel, we have the zone system.....and it will not fail you in your landscape photography - whether shooting B/W or Color.

....and more importantly to us, both meters are incredibly accurate!

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Jul 19, 2013 11:40:40   #
oldtool2 Loc: South Jersey
 
Mogul wrote:
You knew this was going to happen, Rob. If Oskar Barnack were to write an explanation of the workings of the Leica Ia, some know-it-all would tell him he was wrong. It seems to happen everytime someone tries to be helpful.

If anybody is interested in the difference between 18% gray versus 12-13% gray, let them go to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_gray

where they will see the different explanations. I'll bet not one person in a hundred could tell the difference the two colors if printed on cards are not shown side-by-side. I'll also bet not one person in a thousand can find the difference on a histogram.

Some people are stupid, some are just rude and some have gigantic egos. Looks like you've run into one or two people who suffer from all three maladies.

Keep up your good work. Bill

NOW BACK TO THE THREAD TOPIC&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;
You knew this was going to happen, Rob. If Oskar ... (show quote)


A good link Bill! Just for the heck of it I pulled out a couple of gray "cards" I bought over the years. One is actually a micro-cloth for lens cleaning. Under the same light there is a difference in the shades of gray! Which one is correct I have no idea, but all were supposed to be 18%. I don't hardly ever use them anymore so it really doesn't matter.

Lets keep this thread going, using middle gray if you want, because it has been informative and will help the beginners! It won't hurt for some of the old timers to be reminded of some of the things being brought up either!

Jim D

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