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Jul 18, 2013 10:48:39   #
davidrb Loc: Half way there on the 45th Parallel
 
winterrose wrote:
Yes Esther, thank you, that is exactly why I referred to the mid point as being 18% grey. I intend this thread, and what I might follow up with, as not to sprout my knowledge but to provide an easily understood basis of knowledge of exposure for newbies, people who have been carrying around sacred cows based on bad information, or simply those who never really saw the need. Rob.


This topic is too important to allow people to knit-pick over differences most of us do not even know exist! In every reference on DSLR the value of the historgram is emphasized greatly. The discussion here is starting to read like the "Paris Peace Accords" (1971-1972) when the principals argued over the size of the table. We are far more interested in the intent and the design intentions than in the most minute details we can not control.

Please continue this discussion without the interjections of egos. Thanx. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Jul 18, 2013 18:49:37   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
EstherP wrote:
I did a search on Google and found next to nothing about 12 or 13% gray cards, but lots about 18% gray cards.
Because 18% is what is mostly talked about (till I read the above info, I didn't even know about 12 or 13% gray cards), what newbies likely hear about first, and to keep things simple, I would very much prefer to keep referring to 18% grey - whether that be right or wrong!
BTW, I also checked with a local camera shop, and the only grey card they sell states it is 18%.
EstherP


Ester,
Here is a scan of the back of one of my gray cards. It clearly states 18%. I'm in your court.

At least I'm quoting my source, as was asked by someone else.

Back of card
Back of card...

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Jul 18, 2013 19:55:49   #
altheman Loc: Christchurch, New Zealand
 
Of course this all very well however digital sensors do not work in the same way as film as is covered in this link:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml
and is updated in this link:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/optimizing_exposure.shtml
and is also explained in this link in this link:
http://www.johnshawphoto.com/ettr-to-the-far-right/
This of course is only relevant if you are shooting in raw and not jpeg and of course it is important to ensure you don't clip your highlights. I really recommend that you read the links that I have posted so that you all get an understanding as to how digital sensors work. For those of you that already understand the concept I apologize and to the OP if I have derailed your thread even more I apologize.

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Jul 18, 2013 20:37:01   #
winterrose Loc: Kyneton, Victoria, Australia
 
altheman wrote:
Of course this all very well however digital sensors do not work in the same way as film as is covered in this link:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml
and is updated in this link:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/optimizing_exposure.shtml
and is also explained in this link in this link:
http://www.johnshawphoto.com/ettr-to-the-far-right/
This of course is only relevant if you are shooting in raw and not jpeg and of course it is important to ensure you don't clip your highlights. I really recommend that you read the links that I have posted so that you all get an understanding as to how digital sensors work. For those of you that already understand the concept I apologize and to the OP if I have derailed your thread even more I apologize.
Of course this all very well however digital senso... (show quote)


Thank you for looking all that up but anyone and everyone can find that information with a few clicks. In my experience however, there are many for whom that degree of technical explanation, as rudimentary as it may be, is simply too much gobblty-gook to persevere with for them. My impetus to commence this thread was to provide just enough information to non-technical folks to enable them to be able to use their cameras effectively. Rob.

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Jul 18, 2013 20:53:44   #
altheman Loc: Christchurch, New Zealand
 
FilmFanatic wrote:
Middle grey is actually 13%

No middle grey is 18% Camera meters were optimised for between 12% and 13%.

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Jul 18, 2013 21:07:33   #
altheman Loc: Christchurch, New Zealand
 
winterrose wrote:
Thank you for looking all that up but anyone and everyone can find that information with a few clicks. In my experience however, there are many for whom that degree of technical explanation, as rudimentary as it may be, is simply too much gobblty-gook to persevere with for them. My impetus to commence this thread was to provide just enough information to non-technical folks to enable them to be able to use their cameras effectively. Rob.


The third link explains the gobblty-gook really well without the gobblty-gook and of course when you talk about using the camera effectively well I would have thought that ETTR was an effective way of using the histogram and the camera. Then again noise reduction is important to me.
Your first post also emphasized for me the importance of choosing a camera with a sensor with the highest dynamic range possible commensurate with your budget.

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Jul 19, 2013 01:52:39   #
BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA
 
FilmFanatic wrote:
My facts are perfectly straight. 18% is not correct.

Edit: See this thread if you don't believe meL http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000eWN

See also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_card

http://www.amazon.com/Kodak-1903061-Gray-Card-R-27/dp/B00009R7B0

Why are you letting an issue like this disrupt a well-intentioned layman's simple explanation of an issue that confuses so many. If you want to write an explanation of histograms, do it and put it on your own thread.

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Jul 19, 2013 02:19:52   #
BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA
 
winterrose wrote:
Thank you for looking all that up but anyone and everyone can find that information with a few clicks. In my experience however, there are many for whom that degree of technical explanation, as rudimentary as it may be, is simply too much gobblty-gook to persevere with for them. My impetus to commence this thread was to provide just enough information to non-technical folks to enable them to be able to use their cameras effectively. Rob.

You knew this was going to happen, Rob. If Oskar Barnack were to write an explanation of the workings of the Leica Ia, some know-it-all would tell him he was wrong. It seems to happen everytime someone tries to be helpful.

If anybody is interested in the difference between 18% gray versus 12-13% gray, let them go to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_gray

where they will see the different explanations. I'll bet not one person in a hundred could tell the difference the two colors if printed on cards are not shown side-by-side. I'll also bet not one person in a thousand can find the difference on a histogram.

Some people are stupid, some are just rude and some have gigantic egos. Looks like you've run into one or two people who suffer from all three maladies.

Keep up your good work. Bill

NOW BACK TO THE THREAD TOPIC&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;

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Jul 19, 2013 02:42:02   #
winterrose Loc: Kyneton, Victoria, Australia
 
Mogul wrote:
You knew this was going to happen, Rob. If Oskar Barnack were to write an explanation of the workings of the Leica Ia, some know-it-all would tell him he was wrong. It seems to happen everytime someone tries to be helpful.

If anybody is interested in the difference between 18% gray versus 12-13% gray, let them go to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_gray

where they will see the different explanations. I'll bet not one person in a hundred could tell the difference the two colors if printed on cards are not shown side-by-side. I'll also bet not one person in a thousand can find the difference on a histogram.

Some people are stupid, some are just rude and some have gigantic egos. Looks like you've run into one or two people who suffer from all three maladies.

Keep up your good work. Bill

NOW BACK TO THE THREAD TOPIC&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;&#10140;
You knew this was going to happen, Rob. If Oskar ... (show quote)


Thank you Bill.
My next episode will be up presently. Regards, Rob.

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Jul 19, 2013 06:07:28   #
Marv Loc: Crisfield Md
 
big whoop the only thing to remember is that if its too far one way you increase or decrease exposure to try to get it as close to the middle as possible

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Jul 19, 2013 06:08:30   #
andywilk38 Loc: Cambridge UK
 
Thanks, Winterrose - that's brilliant, and you've given me a much better understanding of the histogram, nicely balancing technical with understandability for this Mr Average.

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Jul 19, 2013 06:35:14   #
OnDSnap Loc: NE New Jersey
 
winterrose wrote:
It appears that there is a degree of misunderstanding of what a histogram actually is and exactly what information it displays.

I will reference this to jpeg images for the sake of this thread and for all those ready to correct me on unhelpful technical details please allow me some licence in order to keep this as understandable for as many people as possible.

A histogram is an x,y representation shown as a series of columns representing black on the left brightness with a relative luminance value of 0 and white at the extreme right with its luminance value of 255 while the space between is filled with the remaining 254 columns representing the luminance values of all the shades graduating from black through to white.

The 18% much talked about is “middle grey” which, of course, falls in the centre of the histogram and holds the luminance value of 127.

The important thing to remember here is that any histogram is not an absolute. Any given histogram is tightly related to a particular parametric circumstance. What that means is that a histogram display in a camera displays the range of luminousities within the limits of the dynamic range of that particular camera.

If one camera has a dynamic range of twelve f/stops and another is capable of six and both were used to photograph a tonal sweep, say a surface with an luminance range of fifteen equivalent f/stops in sunlight with exposure set for an 18% grey card then both histograms would look much the same even though camera (a) recorded six stops either side of the middle whilst camera (b) only managed three.

The histogram on both cameras would show that values were recorded in all the columns 0-255 because in these cases the information they display is limited to the actual dynamic range of each sensor.

The 6 f/stop sensor in this case would record as black a luminance value which the 12 f/stop sensor would record as 9% grey.

Likewise the 6 f/stopper would record a shade as being white whereas the 12 would only record the same luminance value as being around 60% grey.

In other words the 12 stop sensor would in one shot record the same range as the 6 stop sensor could if shot as a +3,0,-3 f/stop HDR.

The 12 stopper would have twice as much shadow and highlight detail even though the histograms would probably look much the same.

That’s probably enough for now, I’ll let this sink in and settle for a bit before I continue. Rob.
It appears that there is a degree of misunderstand... (show quote)


Have at it, I'm all ears...patiently waiting for chapter two. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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Jul 19, 2013 06:54:04   #
altheman Loc: Christchurch, New Zealand
 
Perhaps this link will help to clear up the debate about 18% grey cards etc:
http://www.bythom.com/graycards.htm
What I took from the OP is that two cameras sat side by side looking at the same scene one with a sensor that has a 6 stop dynamic range and one with a 12 stop dynamic range will both produce histograms that look the same which of course is to be expected as the light entering the cameras is the same and should be measured in the same way. The sensor with 12 stops of dynamic range will however produce an image with far more detail in the highlights and shadows.
I have seen images produced side by side by a D800 and a 5D MK3, with there being a 2.7 stop difference between the Nikon and the Canon in favour of the Nikon! The images produced by the Nikon had far and away more detail in the shadows and highlights than the Canon.
The above example was used solely to demonstrate a point and not to set one brand against another as personally I use a Sony NEX7 and enjoy watching Canonistas and Nikonians slagging each other off lol

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Jul 19, 2013 07:03:47   #
Larrie Loc: NE Ohio
 
winterrose wrote:
Pleeeease.... I knew this would happen!!!

I asked that people give some latitude so we don't all get bogged down in the detail. This subject is confusing enough for so many so let's just please stick to the subject CONCEPTUALLY and we can all build on people's knowledge with a minimum of confusion.
The "13%" to which you refer is actually 12% and is the level set as middle grey as the median sensitivity of the sensor to compensate for the non-linear way the sensor reacts to a linear progression in light levels so that relative brightness levels recorded by the sensor more accurately mimic the reaction to light of human sight.
I used 18% not because I do not know what I am talking about but because I was referring to the reflectance characteristics of standard objects which is not the same as parameters selected by designers for sensor calibration.
I hope this clears that up. Regards, Rob.
Pleeeease.... I knew this would happen!!! br br ... (show quote)


As you sow so shall you reap!

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Jul 19, 2013 07:13:32   #
winterrose Loc: Kyneton, Victoria, Australia
 
Larrie wrote:
As you sow so shall you reap!


Better explain yourself about that one Larrie.

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