The value (or distraction) of virtual mats and frames
Dec 10, 2018 15:31:21 #
It has never occurred to me to present an image here with either a mat or a frame, since my interest here is in the image itself. I guess if my question were about what presentation I should use, I would present them with mats and/or frames. I do think that an image isn't really complete until it is printed and presented - whether that be with mat and frame, as a canvas wrap, a metal print or whatever might suit the image best. Some of my images are printed on metallic paper and are simply framed with no mat and no glazing. Some have mats and frames. Some are canvas and some are metallic. But presentation is a personal thing and is sort of up to the photographer himself and/or the buyer.
Now the question at hand is whether or not comments and critiques should include the mat/frame that might be presented here with the image. I think if someone presents an image with mat/frame, then apparently s/he wants comments on the presentation. If that isn't wanted, then upload just the image.
Now the question at hand is whether or not comments and critiques should include the mat/frame that might be presented here with the image. I think if someone presents an image with mat/frame, then apparently s/he wants comments on the presentation. If that isn't wanted, then upload just the image.
Dec 10, 2018 15:33:04 #
AzPicLady wrote:
Thanks so much for your time and opinion, Kathy. I appreciate your artist's eye!It has never occurred to me to present an image he... (show quote)
Dec 10, 2018 16:03:34 #
I prefer no mat when posted on-line.
(A small border is okay.)
(A small border is okay.)
Dec 10, 2018 16:07:55 #
Depends on the audience. "Serious" photographers do not mat their work on the web. In real life, the only acceptable mats are neutral, with modest framing--"we are not decorators, but artists" seems to be the guiding principle.
For displaying your work for sale at venues other than high-end, framing/matting may be acceptable. I wouldn't, because it just adds one more thing that may jar someone else's taste and criticism, and more importantly, why? If the work needs some "boosting," it might be better to go back to work on the image.
For displaying your work for sale at venues other than high-end, framing/matting may be acceptable. I wouldn't, because it just adds one more thing that may jar someone else's taste and criticism, and more importantly, why? If the work needs some "boosting," it might be better to go back to work on the image.
Dec 10, 2018 17:29:06 #
Online I use a narrow white space outlined in black to keep parts of the image from blending into the background. This also sets up boundaries for the viewer. Ornate online frames are sometime nicer than the picture they frame. I think they should be avoided.
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Dec 10, 2018 17:32:55 #
This is a great question and there are many answers- so much depends on the situation as to how the image is going to be judged, presented, displayed, sold- there is quite a range of circumstances. I'll try to categorize some of theses scenarios.
PROFESSIONAL COMPETITIONS: Usually picture frames and external mattes are not acceptable in many of theses competitions for certain reasons. The size and format is usually specified for the practical purposes of shipping, handling , judging distance and lighting etc. There is also the philosophy that the assessments need to be "purely" based on photography as opposed to external presentations. Oftentimes the "standard" is a 16x20 FLUSH MOUNTED print on a non-warped mounting board- cardboard or Foam-Cor with the edges neatly taped to avoid fraying.
Many photographers will submit prints with intrinsic "mattes" or masks, added in printing, or utilize a more sophisticated mounting technique, within the guidelines to enable various aspect ratios, oval or circular compositions and/or adding other enhancements such as thin lines (kind of a pin stripe) and borders in coordinated colors etc. In doing theses things, they realize that theses mattes become intrinsic parts of the composition as to negative space, key, placement of the motif of the image in the strongest segment of the allover format and using tones and colors that are harmonious and not distracting. Of course, distracting tones or colors, sloppy or poorly crafted mounts and elements that would upset the composition would create issues and diminish scores. Many camera clubs and online competition and judging programmes are adopting similar standardizations in addition to there judging criteria- more- or less!
So...of course theses "contest rules" or traditions are not laws and in your own work or for professionals, what you produce for your clients, don't need to conform to any specifications- same applies to what you post here on the forum for conversation, discussion fun or critique. Those "rules", however do make aesthetic sense and a sloppy, incongruous, distracting or poorly designed or crafted display presentations can distract from or ruin a perfectly good image.
BUSINESS- In my own business I have, for many years, offered a complete display and picture framing service. Most of my portraits are priced with framing and/or matting included. Of course, it's good add on sales, which all business will promote, but more importantly for me, I like to see the work going out properly presented. Y'all would be surprised what some clients will do with a portrait that they paid good money for! The may go elsewhere and spend more of their good money on a dreadful ostentatious frame and what's horrifying to me is my signature is on this monstrosity. I would rather offer my framing service as a very nominal price that have my work butchered- but it happens!
GALLERIES- Yet there is another THING! A few weeks ago, iI was called upon by an old friend to judge a camera club print competition. Everything was on a pure white matte! Some of the mattes were poorly crafted and others were clean but kinda distracting, especially in low key portraits and scenics. I questioned this and tried to look past the mattes and just judge and critique the images. My co-judge was a local master print maker and he told me that white mattes are standard requirement in most galleries and museums and darker or colored mattes were kinda taboo! Frankly, as a commercial photographer, I am not into the gallery scene so this information was very interesting to me. Although I find some of the white mattes were so much brighter than the brightest highlight in many of the prints- I suppose this kinda puts everything on a level playing field- WHITE! So...I'm still trying to wrap my head around this white matte thing which I, personally, confine to high key images.
SKILL SETS- Theses a lot of skill and know-how that goes into mounting, matting and framing, There is the archival and preservation aspects to consider- acid free materials, specialized spacers and glass when required- besides the aesthetics. Artistically speaking there is a world of considerations- style, period, texture, color coordination, appropraitness to the subject matter, congruence with the decor in the display area and simply whether it brings out or distracts from the image.
WHAT YOU SEE: Whether you are sitting on a professional or camera club judging panel, viewing or critiquing images online, buying art or photography for decor or assessing your own work, you are SEEING the entire object- frame, matte or lack thereof in all it's glory or disarray. That's how I see it!
As for theses forum sections- I think both aspects, images with and without frames and mattes are worth posting and discussing. Obviously, the pure photography is important but the display concept and how the treatment works, advantageously or negatively is very interesting, helpful and constructive. I sometimes complain that everyone is viewing their images on screens and not making prints, creating displays and decor. As I alluded to- there is a world of creativity out there- why no bring it all into the conversations?
PROFESSIONAL COMPETITIONS: Usually picture frames and external mattes are not acceptable in many of theses competitions for certain reasons. The size and format is usually specified for the practical purposes of shipping, handling , judging distance and lighting etc. There is also the philosophy that the assessments need to be "purely" based on photography as opposed to external presentations. Oftentimes the "standard" is a 16x20 FLUSH MOUNTED print on a non-warped mounting board- cardboard or Foam-Cor with the edges neatly taped to avoid fraying.
Many photographers will submit prints with intrinsic "mattes" or masks, added in printing, or utilize a more sophisticated mounting technique, within the guidelines to enable various aspect ratios, oval or circular compositions and/or adding other enhancements such as thin lines (kind of a pin stripe) and borders in coordinated colors etc. In doing theses things, they realize that theses mattes become intrinsic parts of the composition as to negative space, key, placement of the motif of the image in the strongest segment of the allover format and using tones and colors that are harmonious and not distracting. Of course, distracting tones or colors, sloppy or poorly crafted mounts and elements that would upset the composition would create issues and diminish scores. Many camera clubs and online competition and judging programmes are adopting similar standardizations in addition to there judging criteria- more- or less!
So...of course theses "contest rules" or traditions are not laws and in your own work or for professionals, what you produce for your clients, don't need to conform to any specifications- same applies to what you post here on the forum for conversation, discussion fun or critique. Those "rules", however do make aesthetic sense and a sloppy, incongruous, distracting or poorly designed or crafted display presentations can distract from or ruin a perfectly good image.
BUSINESS- In my own business I have, for many years, offered a complete display and picture framing service. Most of my portraits are priced with framing and/or matting included. Of course, it's good add on sales, which all business will promote, but more importantly for me, I like to see the work going out properly presented. Y'all would be surprised what some clients will do with a portrait that they paid good money for! The may go elsewhere and spend more of their good money on a dreadful ostentatious frame and what's horrifying to me is my signature is on this monstrosity. I would rather offer my framing service as a very nominal price that have my work butchered- but it happens!
GALLERIES- Yet there is another THING! A few weeks ago, iI was called upon by an old friend to judge a camera club print competition. Everything was on a pure white matte! Some of the mattes were poorly crafted and others were clean but kinda distracting, especially in low key portraits and scenics. I questioned this and tried to look past the mattes and just judge and critique the images. My co-judge was a local master print maker and he told me that white mattes are standard requirement in most galleries and museums and darker or colored mattes were kinda taboo! Frankly, as a commercial photographer, I am not into the gallery scene so this information was very interesting to me. Although I find some of the white mattes were so much brighter than the brightest highlight in many of the prints- I suppose this kinda puts everything on a level playing field- WHITE! So...I'm still trying to wrap my head around this white matte thing which I, personally, confine to high key images.
SKILL SETS- Theses a lot of skill and know-how that goes into mounting, matting and framing, There is the archival and preservation aspects to consider- acid free materials, specialized spacers and glass when required- besides the aesthetics. Artistically speaking there is a world of considerations- style, period, texture, color coordination, appropraitness to the subject matter, congruence with the decor in the display area and simply whether it brings out or distracts from the image.
WHAT YOU SEE: Whether you are sitting on a professional or camera club judging panel, viewing or critiquing images online, buying art or photography for decor or assessing your own work, you are SEEING the entire object- frame, matte or lack thereof in all it's glory or disarray. That's how I see it!
As for theses forum sections- I think both aspects, images with and without frames and mattes are worth posting and discussing. Obviously, the pure photography is important but the display concept and how the treatment works, advantageously or negatively is very interesting, helpful and constructive. I sometimes complain that everyone is viewing their images on screens and not making prints, creating displays and decor. As I alluded to- there is a world of creativity out there- why no bring it all into the conversations?
Dec 10, 2018 17:39:27 #
newriverpaddler
Loc: West Virginia
Linda, I believe this discussion was prompted partially by my "Bryce Canyon Sunrise" that I posted today. As far as I am concerned, anything I post is open to criticism, after viewing it on the site, and reading the responses, I agree it was a little large. My point is, I never want anyone to hold back on their review, good or bad, that is the way we learn and for me the purpose of posting my photos online is to learn. Thanks for your consideration. Dave.
Dec 10, 2018 18:35:53 #
Hey gang! It's me again!
It was pointed out to me, and rightly so, that the original question or issue was VIRTUAL MATTES and not paper and wooden mattes and frames. My bad, however, my comments. relating to composition, image placement, format, key, tone or color considerations still apply whether the matte is virtual or physical. I hope the other information may prove helpful at another time.
It was pointed out to me, and rightly so, that the original question or issue was VIRTUAL MATTES and not paper and wooden mattes and frames. My bad, however, my comments. relating to composition, image placement, format, key, tone or color considerations still apply whether the matte is virtual or physical. I hope the other information may prove helpful at another time.
Dec 10, 2018 19:23:33 #
Mats can be effective with modest sized prints. A set of black & whte prints of about 7 by 5 into a relatively large frame worked quite well , yellow mats in thin black frames. The photos were well presented this way where without mats they would have been less visible, if that makes sense, they also hung to together as a set.
Dec 10, 2018 19:29:46 #
Longshadow, artbob, bill_de: many thanks for your viewpoints and interest in the topic.
Ed Shapiro - thanks so much for your thorough coverage! Many valuable points to consider under different circumstances. "Display concept" and earlier mention of "presentation" are important points IMO when posting our photos here.
newriverpaddler - Dave, yes your topic and Photographer Jim's here were catalysts for this topic at this time, but as I said I posted all my photos to UHH with Picasa "museum matting" a couple of years ago. Most recently I shared the below to show how I increased canvas size via PS Elements to print a standard aspect (8x12).
Appreciate all the comments!
Ed Shapiro - thanks so much for your thorough coverage! Many valuable points to consider under different circumstances. "Display concept" and earlier mention of "presentation" are important points IMO when posting our photos here.
newriverpaddler - Dave, yes your topic and Photographer Jim's here were catalysts for this topic at this time, but as I said I posted all my photos to UHH with Picasa "museum matting" a couple of years ago. Most recently I shared the below to show how I increased canvas size via PS Elements to print a standard aspect (8x12).
Appreciate all the comments!
Dec 10, 2018 20:05:04 #
larryepage
Loc: North Texas area
Linda From Maine wrote:
Recently in both For Your Consideration and Landsc... (show quote)
When I took my first photography courses, we spent time learning how to dry mount our prints to the substrate (rear) mat and then how to cut and fit the front mat. For me, it was a pretty excruciating process that I struggled to be any good at, particularly doing the front mat.
Thing was, none of that was done with the first priority being artistic concern...it was to provide archival protection for our prints. So we worked to make sure that the outer dimensions fit with "standard" sizes, and the "window" was whatever was appropriate for our prints. So I matted a lot of full frame 10 inch prints to 11x14 overall.
Sometimes we would get really wild and make the window larger than the print so that the dark image of the negative showed around the image. Sometimes we would mount 4.3x7 prints to 11x14 either to make them fit in better with some larger prints or just to try to make them look a little more important than they probably were.
Artistically, I suppose that mats could serve to separate an image from its frame in the case that someone got a really wild hair idea around framing a print.
All this to say that I'm pretty flexible around physical mats on physical prints.
For on line presentation, my preference is for a plain black or very dark surrounding screen (not a mat) so that my eyes don't have to work so hard to see the image. And I prefer the image to be as large as possible.
These are my personal preferences, along with the reasons for them.
Dec 10, 2018 20:06:59 #
Online, I prefer no mat or, perhaps, a thin black or white edge. Sometimes there might be a reason to show a mat--but not generally. For displaying prints I have settled (mostly) on 16 x 20 black metal gallery frames--a standard size makes it more economical--can cut 4 mats out of a standard 40 x 32 sheet, etc. Sometimes will use without a mat. My hope is to make the mat and the frame a non-topic of discussion. I hope they will not be noticed but simply help the viewer consider the merits of the photograph. When I shoot with film, I will do a print showing the edge of the film to indicate a lack of cropping (though I am thinking about whether this is somehow a distraction or vanity about "shooting with film").
I have seen some websites post photos where the page background is all black which I think is an effective presentation on line. However, for a printed photo I prefer a white or off white mat--no double mat or colored edges. In some cases, I find a black mat effective--but in general worrying about mats is something I used to spend a lot of time on and now I try to resist the temptation.
I have seen some websites post photos where the page background is all black which I think is an effective presentation on line. However, for a printed photo I prefer a white or off white mat--no double mat or colored edges. In some cases, I find a black mat effective--but in general worrying about mats is something I used to spend a lot of time on and now I try to resist the temptation.
Dec 10, 2018 20:07:59 #
I remember my advanced photo classes where presentation was taught, the critiques were separate between the overall presentation including mat and frame and then the photo content. I still have the white gloves and a bottle of dried up spotting fluid. And, of course my art gum eraser! Oh yeah, and left over dry mount tissue.
Dec 10, 2018 20:11:02 #
It's fair game, just like a watermark over, in or around the image.. If it interferes with the image (draws your eye) it's worth a mention...... It works both ways, if it helps the image, a mention along those lines works as well.
Dec 10, 2018 20:37:59 #
kenievans
Loc: Dallas
From a newbies perspective I have never thought about matting. I'm too busy just learning how to take a good photo. When I look at a photo in UHH that is matted I have been ignoring it and just looking at the photo. Its just not on my radar nor do I know enough about it to attemp to comment. The few photos I have printed have been on canvas without frames.
Thanks Linda for adding to my list of things to learn.
Thanks Linda for adding to my list of things to learn.
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