ETTR in landscape photography (Page 3): I have noticed that blinkies seem to start about one stop earlier on my D810 than on my D850. I've not yet checked on my older bodies because...

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

R.G. wrote:

Have you ever noticed if the onset of the blinkies coincides with the histogram moving beyond the right?

I have noticed that blinkies seem to start about one stop earlier on my D810 than on my D850. I've not yet checked on my older bodies because they don't offer highlight weighted metering, so it hasn't become a thing yet on thrm.

R.G. Loc: Scotland

larryepage wrote:

I have noticed that blinkies seem to start about one stop earlier on my D810 than on my D850. I've not yet checked on my older bodies because they don't offer highlight weighted metering, so it hasn't become a thing yet on thrm.

I was curious because the histogram is jpeg oriented and I wondered if the blinkies (and shooting in raw) allowed an exposure beyond what the histogram and ETTR would suggest. On the other hand, if I had a camera that was capable of Highlight Weighted metering I'd probably just use that and not worry about wringing every drop of dynamic range out of the sensor.

Some have suggested that EBTR and even ETTR aren't necessary if you have a well-exposed shot from a good camera. For a start I only have a middle-of-the-road camera and secondly I like the thought of having a file that'll take a lot of pushing and pulling without the threat of emerging noise spoiling the fun.

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

R.G. wrote:

Have you ever noticed if the onset of the blinkies coincides with the histogram moving beyond the right?

I have posted about this in great depth:

Sony's Zebra and ETTR
Nikon's Blinkies and ETTR
Sony's Zebra and ETTR - Followup
Nikon's Blinkies and ETTR - Followup

In each of the cameras I wrote about I found the same thing. When the blinkies just barely begin to show there is about one stop (+/- one sixth of a stop) of remaining DR on the high side before the raw file blows out. Since it's only about one stop, there is little to be gained by risking the highlights with EBTR.

This is why I recommend using the blinkies over all other approaches to ETTR.

tommystrat Loc: Bigfork, Montana

Uuglypher wrote:

...

3. ADD to the ETTR exposure your camera’s pre-determined extra raw-accessible dynamic range (ERADR)

Dave

Where does one find such ERADR information for individual cameras?

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

R.G. wrote:

... Some have suggested that EBTR and even ETTR aren't necessary if you have a well-exposed shot from a good camera. ....

That is exactly right.

If the scene's DR is not too wide most cameras will capture the entire DR properly at or near base ISO. All you need to do is to watch for blinkies and take evasive action if they show up where you want to avoid blown highlights.

There are only a handful of scenarios where ETTR is useful or necessary:

1. You are using an old camera and it might be using 12-bit raw rather than 14-bit.
2. Your camera has a small sensor or is otherwise handicapped by noise.
3. The scene's DR is wide and you want to be sure to include a full range of tones in the raw file without blowing the highlights.
4. The light is dim and you want to expose very carefully.
5. Circumstances force you to use a high ISO (dim light + action).

For broad daylight down to heavy overcast (about 4 stops less) there is virtually no benefit provided by ETTR at low ISO.

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

R.G. wrote:

I was curious because the histogram is jpeg orient... (show quote)

If you want to EBTR, you would only need to adjust exposure compensation to make your final exposure end up wherever you would like it to fall.

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

The only way I would suggest is through testing. Each of my cameras was tested prior to using them for ETTR/EBTR. As I noted in an earlier post in this thread, the capabilities vary from individual camera to individual camera. The last camera I purchased, and one I'm about to purchase was and will be tested thoroughly prior to even thinking about taking photographs with them.
--Bob

tommystrat wrote:

Where does one find such ERADR information for individual cameras?

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

R.G., the vast majority of my photographs start with so many blinkies, I've given up looking at in camera previews, etc. Through testing, I know my camera's capabilities and work that knowledge. With my D800e, I can push 2 to 2-1/2 stops past "blinkies mode", though I rarely go that far. My D700, not quite a much. As I mentioned earlier, I use exposure to place values and then adjust the image in ACR and PS.
--Bob

R.G. wrote:

I was curious because the histogram is jpeg orient... (show quote)

R.G. Loc: Scotland

rmalarz wrote:

......With my D800e, I can push 2 to 2-1/2 stops past "blinkies mode".....

That would appear to be contradicting selmslie's claim that it's never more than about one stop (+/- one sixth). He's also suggesting that most of the time ETTR isn't necessary. Do both of those assertions apply only to the most recent FF models?

R.G. Loc: Scotland

larryepage wrote:

If you want to EBTR, you would only need to adjust exposure compensation to make your final exposure end up wherever you would like it to fall.

I'm familiar with the various ways of deliberately over-exposing. I was just wondering which method pushed the exposure furthest - blinkies or the histogram + ETTR?

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

R.G., Scotty is the perennial contrarian when it comes to most ETTR/EBTR statements made by me, or anyone else. It's a shame that a very worthwhile photo posted by Paul has been derailed by, yet, another thread presenting the benefits of ETTR/EBTR techniques.

My only comment is to borrow a phrase from Robert Mapplethorpe, "Look at the pictures". I may have to resurrect one of my photographs soon as a parallel thread to this one.
--Bob

R.G. wrote:

That would appear to be contradicting selmslie's claim that it's never more than about one stop (+/- one sixth). He's also suggesting that most of the time ETTR isn't necessary. Do both of those assertions apply only to the most recent FF models?

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

R.G. wrote:

I'm familiar with the various ways of deliberately over-exposing. I was just wondering which method pushed the exposure furthest - blinkies or the histogram + ETTR?

For the cameras I have, if you don't learn what the blinkies are telling you, they would stop you before the histogram does. Once you do understand, (essentially calibrating the blinkies to the histogram, at least mentally), you should be able to get very nearly the same results from either.

R.G. Loc: Scotland

rmalarz wrote:

R.G., Scotty is the perennial contrarian when it comes to most ETTR/EBTR statements made by me, or anyone else. It's a shame that a very worthwhile photo posted by Paul has been derailed by, yet, another thread presenting the benefits of ETTR/EBTR techniques.

My only comment is to borrow a phrase from Robert Mapplethorpe, "Look at the pictures". I may have to resurrect one of my photographs soon as a parallel thread to this one.
--Bob

I'd say it's OK because the photo in the original post is an example of ETTR. I'm also enjoying the discussion but would like to see more in the way of useful conclusions. For example is ETTR better/worse than blinkies, and if you're lucky enough to have a camera that does Highlights Weighted, is that question irrelevant?

R.G. Loc: Scotland

larryepage wrote:

For the cameras I have, if you don't learn what the blinkies are telling you, they would stop you before the histogram does. Once you do understand, (essentially calibrating the blinkies to the histogram, at least mentally), you should be able to get very nearly the same results from either.

Now that's something I can take away from this discussion. As a simple guide, ETTR + the histogram seems to be safe plus effective, but blinkies would be more informative if you can learn how to read them. And if you know your camera's ERADR you can push either method further.

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

R.G. wrote:

I'd say it's OK because the photo in the original post is an example of ETTR. I'm also enjoying the discussion but would like to see more in the way of useful conclusions. For example is ETTR better/worse than blinkies, and if you're lucky enough to have a camera that does Highlights Weighted, is that question irrelevant?

My experience with highlight weighted metering is still pretty new. Specifically, I am still working to learn exactly what to do with exposure compensationto get absolutely the most ideal results. But my guess right now is that the question is irrelevant as you propose, especially once the ec fine tuning is complete.