Waiting for Nikon and the Z8 (Page 3): The problem is that it does so at a price point that is about 2X what a rational person is willing to pay.

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

mikeroetex wrote:

Z9 fulfills those requirements.

The problem is that it does so at a price point that is about 2X what a rational person is willing to pay.

chrisg-optical Loc: New York, NY

larryepage wrote:

Based on my experience in the semiconductor industry, I've been convinced that the only (or at least the primary) reason that we have ever had half-frame cameras is that it is approximately four times as easy and one quarter as expensive to make IC chips of half the size. The industry would have had a much tougher time getting to where it is today if they had jumped in feet-first trying to build cameras around full-frame sensors. But the DX sensors were easier to make by a couple of miles, yet could be dropped into the familiar existing camera form factor with very little indigestion along the way.

We were spoiled to have come up during an era when costs of doing things were less and expectations of company performance were a lot lower. And there were no options for "taking pictures." So we were able to have 120 film in multiple flavors, 35mm, 16mm, InstaMatic, film discs, and several others without even talking about the professional and specialty formats. In today's shrinking market and unforgiving financial expectations, this level of variety and choice is not sustainable. So any format options are going to have to demonstrate that they will pull in customers that otherwise would not play the game.

My guess is that half-frame format is nearing the end of its days. It was introduced as a manufacturing compromise, and with full-frame sensors of 61MP now commonplace, it doesn't makes more sense to just reprogram customers to crop to a 30MP DX image than to continue to maintain one or multiple assembly lines to make cameras for a small group of customers and maintain the additional finished goods and parts inventory. I prepared for this day by buying a second D500 a few years ago. By the way...I do not shoot wildlife unless a rare opportunity arises, and the same is true of birds in flight. I just really like shooting my D500 when there is no reason to pull out the D850.

To answer the question that you are wanting to confront me with...M43 is a whole different story. It offers something saleable...meaningful and observable miniaturization and weight saving. It will stay. But I fully expect rationalization between M43 and one inch format. I'm not as comfortable talking about that, but my thought is that at some point the compact camera market is going to be surrendered the rest of the way to our pocket multipurpose devices.

So in the end, there will be two surviving formats, if we're lucky. Full-frame and one of the compact formats.

I'd love to be working for Nikon and sitting in on the meetings to see if my take on this is right or wrong. Maybe even contributing a little. Unfortunately, I don't, and you don't, and the people that feed the rumor mills don't. So we'll just have to wait and see.

Based on my experience in the semiconductor indust... (show quote)

What you're saying is 100% technically true, but there are practical reasons why crop sensor cameras make more sense for certain genres of photography - particularly in wildlife - birding, macro and nature. Now if the Z8 turns out to be a Z500 embedded in a FF body by setting 1.5 crop mode that's fine too - having the best of both in one body is certainly a plus. But I think there are many in those genres who don't care about FF and don't want to pay a premium for that ability. For example, if the Z8 turns out to be $3700 at intro for example, and a "Z500" equivalent turns out to be $2000 at intro, someone like me isn't going to pay the $1700 premium for that privilege. As another example, the D850 did not kill D500 sales even though the D850 was almost a D500 in disguise in crop mode. The D500 had the slight edge in performance for sports/action/wildlife. I think it will boil down to pricing and perception in the end. We'll see pretty soon this year.

cmc4214 Loc: S.W. Pennsylvania

chrisg-optical wrote:

I've been saying that for quite a while since the ... (show quote)

neillaubenthal

larryepage wrote:

The problem is that it does so at a price point that is about 2X what a rational person is willing to pay.

That's what the capabilities cost…it isn't just a matter of Nikon wanting to make more money. An earlier reply talked. out essentially a D500 equivalent with all of the Z9 capabilities and stated it ought to cost what the D500 costs…which is around 3K today at B&H…but that just isn't happening. Not only is the sensor double the size in sensor sites…it's newer, BSi, stacked and all the other buzzwords an selling that for the price of a D500 is a pipe dream.

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

neillaubenthal wrote:

That's what the capabilities cost…it isn't just a matter of Nikon wanting to make more money. An earlier reply talked. out essentially a D500 equivalent with all of the Z9 capabilities and stated it ought to cost what the D500 costs…which is around 3K today at B&H…but that just isn't happening. Not only is the sensor double the size in sensor sites…it's newer, BSi, stacked and all the other buzzwords an selling that for the price of a D500 is a pipe dream.

Actually, the D500 has been selling for about $1795 body only for quite a while. The D850 is $2795. And it has all the folderol that you list. So I agree that somewhere between $3k and $3.5k would be reasonable for a true D850-equivalent mirrorless model. I don't recall what the price of the D500 was when it was introduced, but suspect it wasn't too much different from the $1995 I paid for my first one in late 2018.

I'm not in the market for a "mirrorless D500," so I really don't care what one would cost. And I do not have an unscratchable itch for my concept of a Z8. But I'm firm on the maximum I'm willing to pay for one if it's really what I think I want.

btbg

larryepage wrote:

Actually, the larger body is to facilitate shootin... (show quote)

I'm sure it facilitates portrait mode, but it is still built as a sports camera. You can shoot up to 120 fps. You can take photos up to a second prior to when you push the shutter. Those are all sports features, and the extra size definitely helps with balance with big lenses. I was only responding because the OP was questioning why it's a large camera. That's what some of us want for sports. I have smaller bodies for my other applications.

btbg

gwilliams6 wrote:

The bigger bodies with integrated grips are overra... (show quote)

I'm glad you are happy with your camera. I tried it, and it is way to small to hand hold comfortably for long periods of time. That's one of the reasons that camera manufacturers make multiple models, because we are not all looking for the same features.

btbg

larryepage wrote:

The problem is that it does so at a price point that is about 2X what a rational person is willing to pay.

The Z9 was less expensive than either the D5 or D6. It is a bargain for what it does. I make make my living with it and it is worth every penny.

cjc2 Loc: Hellertown PA

btbg wrote:

The Z9 was less expensive than either the D5 or D6. It is a bargain for what it does. I make make my living with it and it is worth every penny.

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

btbg wrote:

The Z9 was less expensive than either the D5 or D6. It is a bargain for what it does. I make make my living with it and it is worth every penny.

For you, yes. For me, though, photography isn't a vocation, it's an avocation. The difference is important. No $6,000 camera for me.

fantom Loc: Colorado

Walkabout08 wrote:

I’m also awaiting the Z8 with the hope and expectation of Z9 equivalent AF in a Z7 size and weight format. The Z9 is too large for me.

gwilliams6

btbg wrote:

I'm glad you are happy with your camera. I tried it, and it is way to small to hand hold comfortably for long periods of time. That's one of the reasons that camera manufacturers make multiple models, because we are not all looking for the same features.

I and countless working pros have no problem holding Sony bodies for long periods of time. Their third and fourth generation bodies are bigger than the first two generations, and have improved ergonomics.

The Top News Services in the world have moved away from their big brick DSLRs to Sony fullframe mirrorless cameras for all their staff photographers and staff videographers Worldwide. Top working pros of all hand sizes are hand holding Sony bodies for long periods of time without issue, shooting in all situations on assignments around the world. If size had been an issue, these top News Services would not have spent millions to switch to Sony all over the past 24+ months.

Associated Press, UK Press, Canadian Press, and all Gannet media outlets including USA Today have all made the move to exclusive Sony use for ALL their staff still photographers and staff videographers around the world. And they have dumped all their big brick DSLRs for their staffers. Just the facts.

These news agencies tested using Sony gear before they made the switches, and they have shot with Sony gear covering all news including war conflicts, and all major sporting events around the world over the last three years, including the Summer and Winter Olympics, the World Cup, all Tennis and Golf Grand slams, NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, MLS and more, and have come away with full confidence in gripping and using their Sony gear. Just the reality.

https://alphauniverse.com/stories/why-the-associated-press-just-switched-to-sony/

https://petapixel.com/2021/11/17/sony-is-now-the-exclusive-camera-provider-for-gannett-and-usa-today/

https://www.dpreview.com/news/4545693607/the-uk-largest-news-agency-partners-with-sony

https://petapixel.com/2022/01/31/canadas-largest-news-organization-moves-exclusively-to-sony-cameras/#:~:text=Canada's%20Largest%20News%20Agency%20Moves%20Exclusively%20to%20Sony%20Cameras,-Jan%2031%2C%202022&text=The%20Canadian%20Press%2C%20the%20largest,provider%20for%20the%20media%20company.

The French News Service, AFP (Agence France Presse) helped develop and test the Nikon Z9 so they are using the Z9 for their staffers.
https://petapixel.com/2022/06/09/how-pro-photographers-helped-make-the-z9-from-prototype-to-flagship/

Cheers and best to you.

baron_silverton Loc: Los Angeles, CA

Architect1776 wrote:

Get an adapter seeing as one is needed anyway for all the F lenses regardless of Sony or Nikon body.

It is physically impossible to mount Z mount lenses to the Sony E mount. Nikon's ultimate edge, which is only now just starting to manifest, is its superior lenses that nobody else will be able to adapt.

gwilliams6

baron_silverton wrote:

It is physically impossible to mount Z mount lenses to the Sony E mount. Nikon's ultimate edge, which is only now just starting to manifest, is its superior lenses that nobody else will be able to adapt.

LOL, what have you been smoking ?

No one has tested and proven Nikon Z lenses to be superior to the best Sony GM lenses and the best Canon RF lenses. Your Nikon fanboyism about lenses has no basis in reality, LOL

Nikon's best lenses are excellent, but NOT superior to the best E-mount and best RF-mount mirrorless lenses. Do better research.

FYI, Nikon Z-mount 28-75mm f2.8, and Nikon Z-mount 17-28mm f2.8 are the very same Tamron 28-75mm f2.8, and Tamron 17-28mm f2.8 lenses that have been out for years for Sony E-mount and Panasonic/Leica/Sigma L-mount cameras, no different.

Cheers

btbg

gwilliams6 wrote:

I and countless working pros have no problem holding Sony bodies for long periods of time. Their third and fourth generation bodies are bigger than the first two generations, and have improved ergonomics.

The Top News Services in the world have moved away from their big brick DSLRs to Sony fullframe mirrorless cameras for all their staff photographers and staff videographers Worldwide. Top working pros of all hand sizes are hand holding Sony bodies for long periods of time without issue, shooting in all situations on assignments around the world. If size had been an issue, these top News Services would not have spent millions to switch to Sony all over the past 24+ months.

Associated Press, UK Press, Canadian Press, and all Gannet media outlets including USA Today have all made the move to exclusive Sony use for ALL their staff still photographers and staff videographers around the world. And they have dumped all their big brick DSLRs for their staffers. Just the facts.

These news agencies tested using Sony gear before they made the switches, and they have shot with Sony gear covering all news including war conflicts, and all major sporting events around the world over the last three years, including the Summer and Winter Olympics, the World Cup, all Tennis and Golf Grand slams, NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, MLS and more, and have come away with full confidence in gripping and using their Sony gear. Just the reality.

https://alphauniverse.com/stories/why-the-associated-press-just-switched-to-sony/

https://petapixel.com/2021/11/17/sony-is-now-the-exclusive-camera-provider-for-gannett-and-usa-today/

https://www.dpreview.com/news/4545693607/the-uk-largest-news-agency-partners-with-sony

https://petapixel.com/2022/01/31/canadas-largest-news-organization-moves-exclusively-to-sony-cameras/#:~:text=Canada's%20Largest%20News%20Agency%20Moves%20Exclusively%20to%20Sony%20Cameras,-Jan%2031%2C%202022&text=The%20Canadian%20Press%2C%20the%20largest,provider%20for%20the%20media%20company.

The French News Service, AFP (Agence France Presse) helped develop and test the Nikon Z9 so they are using the Z9 for their staffers.
https://petapixel.com/2022/06/09/how-pro-photographers-helped-make-the-z9-from-prototype-to-flagship/

Cheers and best to you.

I and countless working pros have no problem holdi... (show quote)

I also am a working pro, who just got back from the state basketball tournament. All the working pros there had big cameras just like me. You are free to use whatever camera you want, as are the other people that you cite. That doesn't mean that everyone wants to follow that same path.

Go to any major sporting event. Sure Sony is making some inroads into the market place, but the bigger body cameras are still in the vast majority, and are far more comfortable for some of us to use.

I don't even know why you want to argue about the point. I merely said that I have tried the Sony cameras, and am not at all comfortable using them. That isn't an opinion, that's a fact. It is also a fact that you like the smaller body. Those two facts do not contradict each other.

I also suspect that you do not spend as much time with big lenses as I do nor that you are as large as I am. I could be wrong in both cases, but I doubt it. In any case, I'm fine with anyone who wants to shooting Sony, I just do not want those who like smaller cameras attempting to force those smaller bodies on the rest of us.