mmills79 Loc: NJ

I agree - give me a 24 to 32 MP APS-C type mirrorless so we can have some resolution to crop, good ISO performance (i.e. No noise or loss of detail through ISO 6400), subject tracking, 10 FPS, reasonably low weight (maybe <600G), weather sealed, under $1500, and I'd be in heaven as would a lot of others. That would cover a lot of shutterbugs needs.

gwilliams6

You are misinformed. I have used big long lenses covering college and pro sports for five decades all around the world. I have used all the best 600mm f4, 400mm f2.8, 300mm f2.8 lenses from Nikon and Canon, as well as using Nikon 1000mm and Nikon 2000mm mirror lenses covering NFL games for special sports magazine stories. And I have had the two major back surgeries because of it.

I have all the published shots and top National POY Sports Photo Awards, and World Press Photo Sports Awards to prove it. And one of my Six Pulitzer Prize nominations was for coverage of one of the six World Series I have covered. FYI, I am 6ft. 4in. and weight 240 pounds and have big hands. My Domke photo vest is size XXL.

I have owned and used all the big body integrated-grip DSLRs made by Canon and Nikon for decades. And it no longer makes any difference as Sony has improved their body ergonomics and are now being widely used by all the staff shooters of the top news services around the world, including staffers of the Associated Press, Canadian Press, UK Press, and all Gannett-owned media, including USA Today. Just the facts.

Freelance shooters can still use whatever gear they already have, and many may not have the funds to move from their own DSLRs to mirrorless yet, but it is happening all over the world, lead by all those top news services staffers.

It is more an economic issue that you still see DSLR sports shooters, shooters tend to use what they have already paid for until it falls apart, LOL. But there will never be any new DSLR sports-centric fullframe flagship cameras released. The major camera makers Nikon and Canon have both said their focus is now on mirrorless. So the move for more and more sports shooters is to mirrorless and to less weight, with better performance with faster stacked-sensor cameras and even lighter, better balanced long lenses.

The pro photo world is changing forever. It is fine if you individually prefer bigger bodies, then stay with bigger bodies and be happy. Sonys and smaller bodies aren't for every photographer. Neither are Nikon or Canon's for every photographer.

But you just need to embrace the reality that bigger brick bodies are not favored or even necessary for most pro shooters anymore, and bigger bodies are no real advantage anymore. Even the integrated mirrorless bodies from Canon like the R3 are significantly smaller than their own sports-centric DSLR Canon 1DX MkIII and Canon 1DX MkII, like I used. The move by most makers is to smaller, lighter bodies, even in pro models.

This thread is really about the upcoming Nikon R8. Will it have the integrated grip of the Z9, no one knows for sure. It could just as likely have the optional removable grip that many prefer nowadays, and be a smaller sized body that the Z9. If it is a smaller body, would you still be interested in one? Only you can answer for what feels right for you.

I just shared the facts of what top staff shooters of the top news services have moved to and that is Sony bodies, and that is all fact for countless top pro shooters that used to use big brick bodies for years. These moves to Sony by the top news services for their staffers worldwide is huge and a real endorsement of Sony's decision to go with smaller bodies that still have top pro performance.

These top news service staffers have adjusted and are doing just fine with their Sony bodies that they can put optional grips on if they prefer, but they aren't forced to use any integrated battery grips when they dont need that extra weight. That for me is a distinct advantage and a choice that I love.

Whether the sporting events you cover are being also covered by staffers of these top news services, or being covered by freelancers and news service stringers will affect how many Sony bodies you see at your events. But know that even freelancers are increasingly using Sony bodies.

Since I made the move to Sony mirrorless, I have owned and used A6500, A7RII, A7RIII, A7III, A9 and currently own and use A7RIV, A1, A7SIII. I currently own 13 E-mount lenses covering 10mm to 600mm from Sony, Sigma and Tamron, plus Sony 1.4X and 2X TCs. I kept one of my Canon lenses, the Canon TS 17mm f4 Tilt-shift lens that I use on my Sony bodies with the MC-11 lens adaptor.

Cheers and best to you.

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btbg

I have no idea what you think I am misinformed about. I have not said anything about DSLRs. I am using the Z9. As to ergonomics, I'm glad the Sony works for you. No, you are not as large as I am. I am 6-7 and weight 270. Of course economics are a portion of why people are choosing to keep their DSLRs over going to mirrorless. Of course some people switched to Sony, because Nikon was way late to the party switching to mirrorless.

With that said, there is clearly a demand for full size mirrorless cameras as Nikon is having trouble keeping the Z9 in stock.

My guess about the Z8 if it is announced in the near future is that it will be more like the size of the D850, or maybe even the D500 then it will be like the Z9. That would be consistent with what Nikon did with the D5 and the D500 several years ago.

It is unlikely that I will purchase a Z8. I have a D500, and don't like it because of it's size. The D850 was a little better, but I still prefer the full sized cameras, and I am not alone. Sorry you have had back surgeries. I use a 600 F4 regularly and have no back issues of any kind.

Your credentials may be impressive, and I'm sure you have shot more professional sports than I since most of my time is spent on high school sports. Nonetheless, I have shot college football, volleyball, wrestling and basketball, as well as the NFR NASCAR and Indy Car, so I too am familiar with major sports.

You see more Sony's all the time at those events, but there are still plenty of guys like me that are sticking to the larger mirrorless bodies. So, we may disagree, but that does not make me misinformed. It just means we have a difference of opinion regarding whether or not the smaller bodies are good ergonomically, and whether the lighter weight makes enough difference to switch.

Obviously Nikon believes that most of the sports photographers who are still using Nikon prefer the larger body. I just happen to agree with them.

This is my last post regarding this issue as there is no point beating a dead horse. Best of luck to you.

cjc2 Loc: Hellertown PA

All of this bantering is kinda funny and entertaining but serves no actual purpose. If it matters, I drive a Ford Explorer, which is great for hauling all my gear. What does everyone else on here drive?

Grahame Loc: Fiji

Perhaps most hilarious is that in all the grandstanding, brand worship, credential bragging and feature tallying we never see a single image posted that could not have been taken with any brand recent entry model camera (ignoring pixel numbers)

btbg

That is 100 percent true. And, I know I have been involved in the bragging. Nonetheless, you speak the truth.

gwilliams6

I meant you were misinformed about me using long lenses, that's all.

You are free to prefer and use your large-bodied integrated-grip Z9. I applaud the Z9 with its Sony-built sensor and I am sure the Z8 also will have a Sony sensor. Nikon and Sony have been business partners a long time and it has benefitted them both. And Nikon's new partnership with Tamron lenses for its Z-mount also benefits Sony who owns a part of Tamron.

When folks here in UHH were predicting the demise of Nikon, just a short couple of years ago, I was a loud voice here saying that no way would Sony let that happen and I predicted that with Sony's help, Nikon's Z9 would be a homerun ,and it is a grand slam, literally saving the company with its aura. I have welcomed Nikon back to its rightful place at the big boys table where it will stay IMHO.

Like most shooters, if you have to pay for your own gear, like many freelancers and news service stringers you are going to stay with what you have already purchased and use it for many years until it breaks and cant be fixed anymore. So many big-bodied camera users at sporting events aren't yet ready to fork over much money to switch to mirrorless. But some are.

After decades on staff with top newspapers and magazines, and having both my own owned personal gear and gear paid for by my media outlets, I went fulltime freelance. So now I must provide all my own gear. It was a tough decision, but once I had tried mirrorless gear I knew the distinct advantages were worth it, and I sold my DSLR gear, both Nikon and Canon cameras and lenses and dove in and went mirrorless.

I actually lost less money than I thought I would on the switch, and I have never regretted making the move.

As most folks cant afford a Z9, or a Sony A1, or a Canon R3, I expect to continue to see big bodied DSLRs around for some time. But DSLRs will never dominate again, ever.

I Know so many fellow pros that a couple of years ago swore to me they would never switch to Sony because they needed a big-bodied camera to grip, hold and balance long lenses. Now many of those same fellow pros are using smaller Sony and smaller Canon mirrorless cameras, and using lighter and better balanced mirrorless-designed long lenses and thriving professionally.

I admit that the third and fourth generations of Sony bodies with their improved size and improved ergonomics are welcome. But I am also happy that Sony refuses to go the way of bigger-bodied integrated-grip cameras, even with their A1.I will never go back to any of those, so the Nikon Z9 is out for me. I am glad it fits you well. Enjoy.

I look forward to the Z8. I am sure it will be excellent.

Cheers and best to you.

gwilliams6

Since you asked, I drive a 2000 Mazda Protege sedan (190K miles) ,and a 2008 Dodge Caravan minivan (170K miles) which both carry my gear just fine. They would both have more work miles, but for many years we had leased company cars for the staff photographers at my newspaper. The leased company cars were on different three-years lease cycles a Chrysler sedan, a Pontiac sedan, two Honda Civics, and finally a Honda CRV. ( as the union rep. I fought hard for those AWD Honda CRVs as we always have to go out in the worst weather, blizzards, hurricanes, floods etc. and even back country to do our photojournalist jobs. )

I also own a 2008 Mazda RX8 40th Anniversary Edition sports car, but not for work ( I used to do amateur racing for many years with many different sports cars) . All three of my current vehicles are fully paid for long ago. The 2008 RX8 40th anniversary edition is one of only 1000 made in the world, and with rotary engine. it has attained classic car status now ,and is now valued and insured by Hagerty's for far more than I paid for it new back in 2008. It has won a few car show trophies along the way.

Cheers and best to you all .

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gwilliams6

If that was totally true than no pro would ever need to buy anything but the entry level cameras, and there would be no need for makers to offer anything else beyond the features and performance of "entry level gear" .

In reality, maybe hobbyists dont need the best of the top gear. I have personally owned both entry level gear and more pro-oriented gear and there are huge differences in how they perform and the creative options and abilities they give me to get "the shot". Making my living in a highly competitive field depends on my consistently getting "the shot" under the harshest conditions and under the most exacting demands on my gear.

You need to use more top pro gear in those situations maybe to understand what I am saying here. I am not taking my entry-level gear to cover Olympic Athletes, or to cover war conflict, or to cover a complex corporate or industrial job, out in a blizzard, hurricane or flood, or even for any of my demanding wedding clients.

Granted the "entry level cameras' today are better than ever with some features trickled down from the top pro flagship models, But there are still enough crucial performance advantages in the best of the top pro-oriented gear to clearly justify their costs for working photographers, and not just talking pixel counts, but pixel count can make a difference in the final image quality, resolution and detail.

Here is one example: shot with a fullframe 50mp Sony A1, and Sony 200-00mm lens. A Great White Heron bends its neck to clean its feathers on the Caribbean Island of Sint Maarten/Sint Martin. 600mm, ISO 1600, f6.3, 1/2000 second. First the fullframe, then a tight crop from the same shot. No entry level fullframe camera of 24-33mp can retain this much resolution and detail when blown up. Just physics, unless you try and apply a lot of AI in post.

And the best top pro mirrorless cameras like the Nikon Z9 and Sony A1 can shoot at 1/32000 second shutter speed, and the Canon R3 can shoot at 1/64000 second shutter speed. No entry level camera can do that. none.

And the Sony A1 can flash synch at 1/400 sec. fullframe and at 1/500 sec. in APS-C mode. No entry level camera can do that, none. Great for flash sync in daylight without having to use HSS (high speed sync) which robs your strobes of their full power output.

And we wont even talk about the differences in weather sealing between entry level models and high-end pro models. That alone can make or break even being able to get a shoot under tough conditions.

I can go on, but you get the idea.

Cheers and best to you.

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gwilliams6

Sony 200-600mm lens used

fantom Loc: Colorado

Whadda you mean a Ford Explorer?? Whass the matter wich you. I been taking pix for years and I know about driving and I'm telling you my Hugo is the best.

gwilliams6

lol

Grahame Loc: Fiji

I think we all know the advantages of all the bells and whistles, it does get rather tedious.

But, the pictures you have just posted 100% support exactly what I stated.

gwilliams6

I dont shoot and get the shots due to "bells and whistles" LOL.

I guess unless you have walked in my shoes and the shoes of a working photojournalist, and have extensively used both entry level and top pro level cameras , you will never understand what I was saying, and NO my shots do not support what you are saying, you just think they do, LOL

End of my discussion with you on this matter, your vision of reality isn't the reality of working photojournalists using the best performing gear to get shots others just dont get sometimes with lesser gear. That is part of why we get paid to do what we do, more is expected of us , and we expect and demand more out of our gear than you know.

Cheers and best to you.

Grahame Loc: Fiji

That's good because it seems that 'reality' to you is simply twisting everything to be about yourself and what you do.