Waiting for Nikon and the Z8 (Page 2): I'm loving my D780. But, I have yet to try its video or mirror-less capabilities. :-(...

Spirit Vision Photography Loc: Behind a Camera.

b top gun wrote:

So I wait it out. I got the D780 for its alleged video capability, so far I have not really put it through its paces, like in camera time lapses which I have done with the D850.

I'm loving my D780. But, I have yet to try its video or mirror-less capabilities. :-(

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

b top gun wrote:

I have been waiting for Nikon to officially announce the specs for their rumored Z8; rumored to be the mirrorless version of their D850??? Am wondering what that Z8 will be directed at...wildlife, birds in flight, street photography, landscapes and seascapes?

One of the alleged merits of going mirrorless...size and weight reduction; what happened to that advantage when the Z9 appeared? For those who push the more compact size and weight of mirrorless bodies; what is the gain when ya go and add a honking big lens to that smallish body? (Hang a Nikkor 24-70 f/2.8 on a Z6 II and the FTZ adapter, where is the center of balance?) Back in the day I used to shoot competitive rifle and I learned a few things from that; first, size and weight properly distributed added to the stability of the shooting platform, second, I learned to control my breathing and still apply those principles today when taking a photograph off hand; I get into a rhythm and execute the shot. When available, I will use any handy rest for my arms; regardless, my breathing rhythm still has to be under control. And I put this out there, even with VR lenses and IBIS in a mirrorless, ya still have to control your breathing to get the shot. Ya just don't jam the shutter release and expect technology to make up for poor technique.

Back to the Z8, back in the day I had a Nikon D300, I had lots of fun with that body; finally got antsy waiting for Nikon to bring out its replacement; waited so long that I grew impatient and grabbed the D7100 when I got the finances. In fact I had two D7100s when I went on my first Nikon holiday, a trip to Oregon and Crater Lake. Had a Nikkor 18-200 DX VR on the primary D7100. That combo made multiple trips to the Pac NW and two to AZ. Got the itch and began to look into upgrading to full frame and a D810, almost pulled the trigger. Had a heart to heart with my old photography mentor who put it this way, "If you go full frame, forget about the D810, get the extra cash together somehow and order the newly announced D850." Sold one of the D7100s, got a cash advance from my CFO at home and have enjoyed the D850 since.

I am so used to the feel of that camera with 24-70 f/2.8 lens on it, it is my "go to" combo. What I like, I can do some pretty good cropping and still have more than enough data to print a 20" x 30" with no loss of detail. Was out West last November, my birthday treat to myself. Had the D850, had a D780 with 70-200 f/2.8, had the D7100 body to back up either and a Samsung S22+ in my jacket pocket...and had fun. I asked myself, "What would a mirrorless have done that what I had could not have handled???" At one point I was face to face with a group of fourteen desert bighorn sheep grazing right at me; they got within 75 feet before someone way behind started making noise, eventually the sheep drifted off. I was able to crop one of the better images of that group, two of them less than fifty feet away; with all the cropping I still have plenty left for a nice crisp enlargement if I choose. Gotta love the size of the NEF files out of the D850 when I want to go large...20" x 30" minimum.

A side note on that trip, how sad to see both Lake Mead and Lake Powell as a result of the extended drought out West. Glad I did that trip when I did and with the equipment I had available.

One of the best grabs of the entire trip was taken with the Samsung S22+, sunset at the Grand Canyon.

I have been waiting for Nikon to officially announ... (show quote)

Like you, I am waiting for Nikon to fill the gap between the 7-series Z7ii and the Pro-series Z9. I recall when the Z7 was introduced that it was ballyhooed, both here and in my local camera stores, as being "80% of a D80." I looked very hard at the Z7, much more out of interest than out of any need or even any perceived want, and found that it fell very short of measuring up to the D850 or even the D810. Evaluation and use showed me that the Z7 (as well as the Z7ii) are very clearly 7-series cameras, both in terms of available functionality and (more importantly) the camera operating system and user interface. Cameras are much more than their pixel count or frame rate, and the consumer-level user interface was, and continues to be, a deal-killer for me. The Z9 has never been in my sights, simply because I do not need and cannot justify $6,000 for any single camera. (I paid only a few dollars more than that for both of my D500s and my second D850 combined, all bought new in-the-box.)

There is no assurance that Nikon will quickly fill this gap. One historical example is the D100/D200/D300/D300s/D500 lineage. In particular, the D100 was introduced in 2002, followed by the D200 in 2005, D300 in 2007, and D300s in 2009. The D500, however, was not introduced until 2016, and the line was actually left completely vacant for a period that I am recalling as three or four years. (I was unable to find the actual cancellation date for the D300s this morning.)

My situation is far from desperate. I am losing no sleep, and my blood pressure maintains at a normal level. I am very happy with the system that I have put together to this point, and will be able to do just fine with it for as long as necessary or as long as at least one of my cameras continues to function. But I will be near the front of the line if and when the camera that we are calling a Z8 ever does become reality at a price point somewhere close to $3,000. To be honest, I don't know right now exactly what I'll do with it. I don't in any way see it immediately retiring my other cameras, and I don't see it radically changing my photographic output. But it will be fun to at least play with.

chrisg-optical Loc: New York, NY

jcboy3 wrote:

Do a spec comparison, and you will see that the Nikon Z7ii is the mirrorless version of the D850. Except for the Consumer vs Pro user interface. So what is a Z8 supposed to do that would warrant a new model name?

Nikon needs to provide a firmware update that takes advantage of the dual processors that they promoted when they released the Z6ii/Z7ii models. Not likely to happen, but that's to be expected. I think the Z6/Z7 update was uncharacteristic.

That's what I thought too I always regarded the Z7ii the mirrorless D850. Perhaps the Z8 will be somewhere between the Z7ii and Z9 in performance and price, which I am guessing will be in the high $3k range. Falls in line with their numbering scheme, but I suspect they are saving Z1/2 for their ultimate cameras.

nervous2 Loc: Provo, Utah

Nice, but still hoping for some sheep shots.

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

jcboy3 wrote:

Do a spec comparison, and you will see that the Nikon Z7ii is the mirrorless version of the D850. Except for the Consumer vs Pro user interface. So what is a Z8 supposed to do that would warrant a new model name?

Nikon needs to provide a firmware update that takes advantage of the dual processors that they promoted when they released the Z6ii/Z7ii models. Not likely to happen, but that's to be expected. I think the Z6/Z7 update was uncharacteristic.

Except for resolution and sensitivity, the Z7 is clearly a descendant of the D750/D780. When I was doing my "tryout" of the Z7, I found it to be frustratingly different from the D850 in many ways. It was much more like my D90 IR conversion camera than any of the cameras I shoot regularly, including the D500 or D300.

And if, in fact, Nikon truly considered it the "mirrorless D850," they wouldn't have continued making that camera for four years. So no, as a D850 shooter, I in no way buy in to the notion that the Z7/Z7ii are the mirrorless equivalent of the D850.

gwilliams6

Nikon Z7II vs Nikon D850:
https://photographylife.com/nikon-z7-ii-vs-nikon-d850

Nikon Z9 vs Nikon D850:
https://cameradecision.com/compare/Nikon-Z9-vs-Nikon-D850

There is no doubt the upcoming Nikon Z8 will go with the Sony fullframe 61mp sensor, like in the Sony A7RV, A7RIV, A7RIVa.
This 61mp sensor is NOT the fast-reading second-generation stacked-sensor, so expect that the Z8 will NOT be capable of the fps speeds of the Z9 with its stacked-sensor.

Nikon Z8 will be going for the higher resolution and detail of that fullframe 61mp sensor vs the speed of the Z9. In that sense the Z8 will be Nikon's fullframe mirrorless megapixel champ, like the D850 was Nikon's DSLR megapixel champ tailored for IQ vs fps speed of the more sports orientated DSLR D6.

The Z8 helps Nikon fill out its fullframe mirrorless offerings, made for shooters that will covet its top image quality, resolution and detail like landscape, studio and portrait shooters.

Cheers and best to you all.

Grahame Loc: Fiji

I look forward to seeing what the Z8 is going to be.

When they produce what I want I'll add one to my Z6 and dump the DSLR backup.

a) Larger body from the Z6/7 with more ergonomic and user friendly left rear buttons/cursor for fast easier user operation.

b) Quick one button change (programable) from 'AF single focus point' to 'AF Auto Area Subject/Eye tracking'.

btbg

b top gun wrote:

I have been waiting for Nikon to officially announce the specs for their rumored Z8; rumored to be the mirrorless version of their D850??? Am wondering what that Z8 will be directed at...wildlife, birds in flight, street photography, landscapes and seascapes?

One of the alleged merits of going mirrorless...size and weight reduction; what happened to that advantage when the Z9 appeared? For those who push the more compact size and weight of mirrorless bodies; what is the gain when ya go and add a honking big lens to that smallish body? (Hang a Nikkor 24-70 f/2.8 on a Z6 II and the FTZ adapter, where is the center of balance?) Back in the day I used to shoot competitive rifle and I learned a few things from that; first, size and weight properly distributed added to the stability of the shooting platform, second, I learned to control my breathing and still apply those principles today when taking a photograph off hand; I get into a rhythm and execute the shot. When available, I will use any handy rest for my arms; regardless, my breathing rhythm still has to be under control. And I put this out there, even with VR lenses and IBIS in a mirrorless, ya still have to control your breathing to get the shot. Ya just don't jam the shutter release and expect technology to make up for poor technique.

Back to the Z8, back in the day I had a Nikon D300, I had lots of fun with that body; finally got antsy waiting for Nikon to bring out its replacement; waited so long that I grew impatient and grabbed the D7100 when I got the finances. In fact I had two D7100s when I went on my first Nikon holiday, a trip to Oregon and Crater Lake. Had a Nikkor 18-200 DX VR on the primary D7100. That combo made multiple trips to the Pac NW and two to AZ. Got the itch and began to look into upgrading to full frame and a D810, almost pulled the trigger. Had a heart to heart with my old photography mentor who put it this way, "If you go full frame, forget about the D810, get the extra cash together somehow and order the newly announced D850." Sold one of the D7100s, got a cash advance from my CFO at home and have enjoyed the D850 since.

I am so used to the feel of that camera with 24-70 f/2.8 lens on it, it is my "go to" combo. What I like, I can do some pretty good cropping and still have more than enough data to print a 20" x 30" with no loss of detail. Was out West last November, my birthday treat to myself. Had the D850, had a D780 with 70-200 f/2.8, had the D7100 body to back up either and a Samsung S22+ in my jacket pocket...and had fun. I asked myself, "What would a mirrorless have done that what I had could not have handled???" At one point I was face to face with a group of fourteen desert bighorn sheep grazing right at me; they got within 75 feet before someone way behind started making noise, eventually the sheep drifted off. I was able to crop one of the better images of that group, two of them less than fifty feet away; with all the cropping I still have plenty left for a nice crisp enlargement if I choose. Gotta love the size of the NEF files out of the D850 when I want to go large...20" x 30" minimum.

A side note on that trip, how sad to see both Lake Mead and Lake Powell as a result of the extended drought out West. Glad I did that trip when I did and with the equipment I had available.

One of the best grabs of the entire trip was taken with the Samsung S22+, sunset at the Grand Canyon.

I have been waiting for Nikon to officially announ... (show quote)

The Z9 was built for sports photographers. We like big bodies to go with the big lenses. it makes the camera balance better. It's designed to closely mirror the D5 and D6 as far as ergonomics and controls. Hope that at least partially explains why it is built larger than most mirrorless cameras.

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

btbg wrote:

The Z9 was built for sports photographers. We like big bodies to go with the big lenses. it makes the camera balance better. It's designed to closely mirror the D5 and D6 as far as ergonomics and controls. Hope that at least partially explains why it is built larger than most mirrorless cameras.

Actually, the larger body is to facilitate shooting in portrait orientation as well as shooting in landscape orientation. That's beneficial for sports photographers, but it's also beneficial for a lot of other photography as well.

I had a Fuji S3 Pro. It was built to the same form factor. No way was it a sports camera. Or a wildlife camera. Shutter delay was at least half a second. Now all my cameras have battery grips. For the same reason. Oh...and to hold a second battery. I've never photographed competitive sports. If I ever get a Z8 it will have a battery grip added as well.

gwilliams6

The bigger bodies with integrated grips are overrated. I used them in my Nikon and Canon DSLRs to shoot all sports for decades, winning World Press Photo and Pictures of the Year awards.

Then I moved over to Sony where I have the option to use a battery grip or not, and I miss nothing about those integrated battery grip huge and heavy bricks, nothing. And I have no problem balancing long lenses on my A1 and A7RIV when I dont want to use a battery grip shooting sports and wildlife handheld. The lighter overall camera/lens weight without an integrated grip is wonderful and makes it easier to handhold longer.

Nikon knows its pro audience, and it made the transition to mirrorless easier and more comfortable for those used to those big brick DSLR bodies moving to a mirrorless camera of the same form factor. And the Sony long lenses are purposely designed NOT to be front heavy, and have their center of weight further rearward so they balance just fine.

This longtime pro will never go back to any integrated grip big body from any brand. And I am a big guy with big hands too.

No knock on Nikon, use what you love and are familiar with and be happy. The Z9 is a superb camera. I am sure the Z8 will be excellent also.

Cheers and best to you all.

cmc4214 Loc: S.W. Pennsylvania

It seems to me that a MILC to replace the D500 would be a better idea...but what do I know???

billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont

Grahame wrote:

I look forward to seeing what the Z8 is going to be.

When they produce what I want I'll add one to my Z6 and dump the DSLR backup.

a) Larger body from the Z6/7 with more ergonomic and user friendly left rear buttons/cursor for fast easier user operation.

b) Quick one button change (programable) from 'AF single focus point' to 'AF Auto Area Subject/Eye tracking'.

The one button change would be great. On my Sony's I have a button assigned to change my focusing. With Sony you have a choice of up to 10, I have 5 of my favorites programed to that one button, while looking through the viewfinder, I can just push the button and I can see the five rotate through, I can do a complete change in a nanosecond. I could just have two assigned to that button but I like and use all five. Eye tracking is included in all five so that helps too.
This is just ONE of the reasons I switched to Sony, I have had the Sony a9 for three years now and Nikon still does not have an answer for it.
I wish nothing but the best for Nikon in their drive towards a world leading mirrorless camera. They are making great strides towards that goal, maybe the Z8 (still a rumor) will be the one.

chrisg-optical Loc: New York, NY

cmc4214 wrote:

It seems to me that a MILC to replace the D500 would be a better idea...but what do I know???

I've been saying that for quite a while since the Z system was introduced. Nikon seems to be focusing only on FF for pro bodies and APSC for vloggers and consumers (Z50/Zfc/Z30)...if they are smart they shouldn't ignore the pro/enthusiast wildlife crop niche. The D500 was wildly successful when introduced. I for one would buy into it (already have the Z6ii which I love). The Z55 perhaps? Take the Z50 and add: IBIS, dual cards, top notch AF ala D500 or better matching Sony, dual Ex7+ processors, very deep buffers, and maybe bump up the MP to 24-30 with BSI tech. Price it around what the D500 was (or a bit less) when introduced and they would have a winner IMO.

mikeroetex Loc: Lafayette, LA

Grahame wrote:

I look forward to seeing what the Z8 is going to be.

When they produce what I want I'll add one to my Z6 and dump the DSLR backup.

a) Larger body from the Z6/7 with more ergonomic and user friendly left rear buttons/cursor for fast easier user operation.

b) Quick one button change (programable) from 'AF single focus point' to 'AF Auto Area Subject/Eye tracking'.

Z9 fulfills those requirements.

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

chrisg-optical wrote:

I've been saying that for quite a while since the ... (show quote)

Based on my experience in the semiconductor industry, I've been convinced that the only (or at least the primary) reason that we have ever had half-frame cameras is that it is approximately four times as easy and one quarter as expensive to make IC chips of half the size. The industry would have had a much tougher time getting to where it is today if they had jumped in feet-first trying to build cameras around full-frame sensors. But the DX sensors were easier to make by a couple of miles, yet could be dropped into the familiar existing camera form factor with very little indigestion along the way.

We were spoiled to have come up during an era when costs of doing things were less and expectations of company performance were a lot lower. And there were no options for "taking pictures." So we were able to have 120 film in multiple flavors, 35mm, 16mm, InstaMatic, film discs, and several others without even talking about the professional and specialty formats. In today's shrinking market and unforgiving financial expectations, this level of variety and choice is not sustainable. So any format options are going to have to demonstrate that they will pull in customers that otherwise would not play the game.

My guess is that half-frame format is nearing the end of its days. It was introduced as a manufacturing compromise, and with full-frame sensors of 61MP now commonplace, it makes more sense to just reprogram customers to crop to a 30MP DX image than to continue to maintain one or multiple assembly lines to make cameras for a small group of customers and maintain the additional finished goods and parts inventory. I prepared for this day by buying a second D500 a few years ago. By the way...I do not shoot sports or wildlife unless a rare opportunity arises, and the same is true of birds in flight. I just really like shooting my D500 when there is no reason to pull out the D850.

To answer the question that you are wanting to confront me with...M43 is a whole different story. It offers something saleable...meaningful and observable miniaturization and weight saving. It will stay. But I fully expect eventual rationalization between M43 and one inch format. I'm not as comfortable talking about that, but my thought is that at some point the compact camera market is going to be surrendered the rest of the way to our pocket multipurpose devices.

So in the end, there will be two surviving formats, if we're lucky. Full-frame and one of the smaller formats.

I'd love to be working for Nikon and sitting in on the meetings to see if my take on this is right or wrong. Maybe even contributing a little. Unfortunately, I don't, and you don't, and the people that feed the rumor mills don't. So we'll just have to wait and see.