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Sep 1, 2023 01:37:31   #
We had them in the New York City schools. We also took cover under our desks. Absolutely ridiculous. The outside wall of the room was a series of very tall windows, running most of the length of the room. In a nuclear attack, even miles away, we all would have been killed by flying glass.
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Mar 10, 2023 14:09:14   #
Harold Stetson wrote:
My friend that I have talked about who owns an EV said that if he had it to do over he would possibly lease. He said technology is changing so rapidly that he would allow the lease company to swallow the tech change rather than worry about it himself. I am a farm boy and never considered a lease as viable but I think he has a great point.
In fact more and more farmers are going to lease as the equipment is so expensive to repair and so proprietary. They lease to avoid repair bills and having to pay 150 dollars an hour just to scan a piece of equipment.
My friend that I have talked about who owns an EV ... (show quote)


As far as technology changes goes, there are two kinds. One is software, and the other is hardware. I bought my car in March of 2021. Tesla has provided frequent downloads of software upgrades that range from bug fixes to turn on of major additional features, such as making the blind spot cameras available in conjunction with the turn signals and green light detection. The computer in the car is sufficiently capable of accepting the updates offered so far. It even has the capability for the (G-d forbid) full self driving option. Hardware upgrades, obviously, don't happen on already existing models. They also are infrequent. Basically, the car stays current until a major hardware upgrade takes place. Some are planned for the model Y, but they are not earth shattering, so I am not really concerned about the upcoming changes. Over the long haul, yes, the technology will change, but unless the lease is for a long time, it is unlikely that the hardware will change enough to make a difference. In fact, the way Tesla makes changes by phasing them in to current production, the buyer doesn't know if a certain change is present in his/her particular vehicle until after purchase. In theory you could be leasing the last vehicle manufactured before a significant hardware change.
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Mar 10, 2023 12:52:36   #
Harold Stetson wrote:
Wind power makes money by government subsidies. They don't produce enough power to pay their way as in pay for installation and maintenance. Solar will make money from power production. The big drawback to wind it the impact on birds for some reason they don't see the blades.


Interesting point about the birds possibly not seeing the blades. My first thought is they get sucked into the blades, but then seeing how slowly the blades turn, I think you are right.

The problem of bird kills also affects some solar plants. Most of us recognize the plants that are rows and rows of solar cells that seem to go on for miles. These don't kill birds. There is a type of thermal solar plant that uses mirrors to focus the sun's rays on a boiler mounted on a tower to produce tremendous amounts of heat to boil water to make steam for turbine electrical generators. You can recognize them by their semicircular rows of mirrors. The heat between the mirrors and the boiler is so intense that it cooks the birds on the fly.
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Mar 10, 2023 12:26:15   #
Reuss Griffiths wrote:
We can pick at issues like methane as a greenhouse gas. It's a fossil fuel which we burn, not release into the atmosphere. When you cut to the quick, the only workable outcome is to get rid of all the subsidies and let EV compete with fossil fuels directly. The only way that can work is if we bring on far more nuke plants than currently exist. You're lucky if you have one in your back yard that supplies your power. You're also lucky that you live in a desert and no one cares if you build a wind farm or solar-powered plant there. But nuke plants would have to be on a nation-wide basis and there's not much likelihood of that happening in time to meet the increasing demand for electric due to transportation. As far as increasing gas prices, we have at least a 400 yr supply and would not expect prices to increase unless our government intervenes. If you think you're going to save money with electric, wait until you see what happens to electric prices once the transportation demands increase. And it won't just affect the cost of driving, it will affect everything electric like your cost for air conditioning.

What works in our system is to use the most economical and reliable form of energy until something better replaces it.
We can pick at issues like methane as a greenhouse... (show quote)


Production of natural gas releases large amounts of methane into the atmosphere, both at the well head and during transmission.

I don't know about being lucky to have a nuke in my backyard. When I lived on Long Island, I had the Shoreham plant 13 miles away. It was a total disaster. Luckily, it was dismantled before delivering it's first kW of power. The project, well behind schedule and monstrously over budget, was mismanaged from day one. Corners were being cut and numerous coverups of errors and defects were found during government inspection. Company management, knowing full well that they were not going to get an operating license, ran a test which contaminated the reactor, driving the cost of dismantling up by orders of magnitude. Fortunately, Palo Verde is quite the opposite. It is the largest in the country and well run. It supplies power to AZ, CA and NV.

It is highly unlikely that many nukes will be built. Aside from the cost and time it takes to build them, there is a justifiable fear associated with them. I am aware that there is a new design type that is self limiting, and "cannot" run away, but that fact will get buried in the noise when an application for such a plant is made.

Why would you assume that just because we live in the desert that no one cares if we build wind or solar farms? The desert is far from a wasteland. It has an amazing ecology and stunning beauty. Every application for solar or wind get the same amount of opposition as an application in any other place.

As EVs propagate, there will be less need for gasoline, and fewer places to buy it. You might even need an app to find your nearest gas station. That will drive the prices up. You might even have a problem finding a place to repair your car. With fewer gas cars on the road, there will be fewer places to service them.

Before you point out the expense of battery replacement, I will tell you that the battery warranty on my car is that the battery will retain greater than 70% of capacity for 8 years and 120,000 miles. Most of the older Teslas on the road have passed 150,000 miles and still retain high capacity. By the time 8 years go by, I will probably want a new car, if for no other reason than taking advantage of technology advances beyond those that Tesla now downloads to us periodically.
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Mar 10, 2023 11:43:33   #
Lucian wrote:
The manufacture of solar panels requires the use of fossil fuels.


Granted. As more wind and solar come on line, that will decrease, too. This is not going to happen overnight, but t is happening now.
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Mar 10, 2023 02:17:19   #
Reuss Griffiths wrote:
Let's assume that you're right and that that "cabinet" contains a transformer and not a diesel generator, what's generating that power to the transformer. Solar or wind? Not likely. Nuclear, possibly but it's probably natural gas or coal. So where is the environmental benefit of the EV. Wouldn't it be better and more efficient to just drive a natural gas-powered vehicle instead?


It depends on where you are. AZ has a large solar component in it's toolbox of power sources, and also we have a very large Nuke (Palo Verde). Most of the remainder come from natural gas, hydroelectric (for the immediate future) and a small, and decreasing portion from coal.

Natural gas is not environmentally friendly, it is methane, which is a really bad greenhouse gas. The best that can be said about it, is that it burns more cleanly than coal or oil. I have not seen a fueling station along I-10, I-17 or I-8 that supplies natural gas. The Department of Energy has a website that shows the location of every fueling station, for every kind of fuel.

The environmental benefits from EVs come on slowly. As more EVs are on the road, the amount of greenhouse tailpipe emissions decrease. I didn't buy the car because I felt a burning need to buy an environmentally sound vehicle, I bought it because I needed a new car and didn't want to invest in a car that was going to see increasing fuel costs a few years out.

A bit of information about diesel generators. A diesel generator would not be a good choice for something like a Supercharger station. Diesel generators operate best when connected to more or less constant loads. That is why the power companies use them to supply base load. The Supercharger stations have very uneven loads. There might be no cars, or there might be ten or twenty. Each car will have it's own charging curve, depending upon how full the battery is. When the charger starts up on a low battery, the charge rate is very high. It falls off rapidly after a short time. When the battery gets over 80%, the charge rate slows down. This is a very uneven load, and unsuitable for a diesel generator.
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Mar 9, 2023 19:57:19   #
Harold Stetson wrote:
It's more than 220 thou it comes down to 220 after the transformer. You need 2 110 legs for 220. I look at that as 2 phase but electricity guys beat me up for that since it isn't phased like three phase. If your charger is 48 that makes it a lot for smaller generators. I have a 12 KW which is 10 KW continuous on gasoline and only 9.5 on propane. That is 10 k divided by 220 gives you 45 amps. Won't make it and a 12 KW is not a small generator. My wife knows Ohms law and thinks all appliances are 15 so she can have 3 with the generator. The 12 peak matters when our pump starts as it's about 15 but needs 26 to start. the Tesla requires a pretty big set up and doing it at night works but you can't be in a hurry.
It's more than 220 thou it comes down to 220 after... (show quote)


The voltage that comes from the transformer is split phase 220. The two lines are 180° out of phase with respect to the ground line. Each will measure 110 with respect to ground and 220 between the lines. I also know Ohm's Law, I got my EE Degree in 1967.

Your EV conversion sounds interesting. How are you going to control the motor? Is it an AC or DC motor? The Tesla uses one of each.

I slightly misrepresented the Tesla charging system. It will supply up to 48 amps, but I can use the app in the car or on my phone, and set it at any level up to the max. The same for the charging time. I can set it to start any time, or even, if I have a departure time, and I set the car up to charge, it will charge by the departure time.
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Mar 9, 2023 16:08:59   #
Harold Stetson wrote:
No oil "wanders through the engine." The motors are sealed, and air cooled. Coolant is use to keep the battery temperature down, and also to heat the battery under cold conditions. The battery coolant does not need to be changed. As far as I can remember, the only fluids that need attention are the windshield wiper fluid, and the brake fluid.



That is not the case at all. I have a Mach E motor and plan to do an EV conversion. I think the EV conversion has some benefits that electric vehicles don't have like keeping cars out of land fills or salvage yards and providing short distance transportation. The motor does use oil cooling in it. How often it needs to be changed I do not know but it is not air cooled. My hope was to use the oil for the heater but it seems that is not realistic. They do pick up particulate and need changing but I don't know how often. Nothing is free. It might be a good deal but it isn't free.

440 three phase does not need to be in an industrial area just a larger power line. Those are around 330 thousand volts three phase. Thats one reason they want to put the solar farm in on my place as you need a major line to take the power. My house is on a smaller line and I have no three phase. There are only 2 wires on the poles and I don't know the voltage but probably pretty high as that's a more efficient way to move power. Amperage makes heat and requires larger wires and it's volts times amps for the power capability. Much more efficient with high volts. That's why the Mach E is 450 volts.
No oil "wanders through the engine." The... (show quote)



I have no experience on the Mach E. The Teslas use air cooled motors, and the only coolant is used for the battery. By Tesla's own statement that coolant does not have to be changed.

Two wires on the pole sounds like 120V. It could be higher if there is a transformer feeding the line to your house.

Unless you want to install a Supercharger ($$$$$$$$$$$$$), there is no need to have three phase power. The level 2 home chargers attach to normal 220 volt lines, with your charge rate a function of the maximum current that your line provides. The maximum for the Tesla is 48 amps, for which you need a 60 amp line. Some chargers can plug into 30 amp dryer outlets or T-50 outlets. The Tesla comes with a portable charger that works on 120 volts, but only adds 2-4 miles per hour. Adapters for the various 220 volt outlet styles are inexpensive, and with a T-50 outlet, allow for the addition of around 39 miles per hour. I plan to buy such an adapter for T-50 outlets because I have found that many RV camps have those connections. That would extend the area where the car could be used without having to bite my nails looking for a compatible charger. That adapter costs about $35.

I have seen in the news that Musk plans to open the Tesla network to other vehicles. It is not clear how he is going to do this, since the power connector on the charger is different from the CCS connector that many other cars use. There must be something to this because I did notice the other day that the Tesla phone app has added the ability for non members to sign up to use the network. There is a choice for pay as you go, or monthly membership with lower rates than pay as you go. Teslas are able to use other networks, as there are already adapters to convert the Tesla connector to CCS.
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Mar 9, 2023 13:10:29   #
Reuss Griffiths wrote:
Tell me what's inside the fenced in area immediately adjacent to the charging station. There is always a fenced in area located in conjunction with these charging stations. As I said, it would take 440 service to provide sufficient power to the stations at anywhere near full capacity and it's generally not available in strip malls, etc. where chargeing stations are generally located.


I have never seen a fenced area near a charging station. The service is underground, which is the wiring method at every Tesla Supercharger I have used. There are large cabinets that must contain transformers because of the hum level that can be heard a few feet away. I think the distribution to these cabinets would be 3 phase, 440 or higher, and the transformers are used to convert to single phase power, and if the voltage is higher, then they reduce it to 440. The rectifiers must also be present in the cabinets because the Supercharger is a DC charger. The Tesla battery is nominally a 360 volt battery, so 440 volts is appropriate for the charger.
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Mar 9, 2023 00:28:04   #
Lucian wrote:
Your quoted charge times on the road of 20-25 mins. are these quick charge times, or regular charge times?


These are charge times at the Tesla Supercharger. That makes them quick charges.
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Mar 8, 2023 19:44:18   #
Lucian wrote:
Right, but how much time would you waste in a month, sitting there waiting for your batteries to charge up, compared to the few minutes each time with a Petrol engine? You are advised by the makers, not to use the quick charge method too often, because it is not good for your battery life. Therefore, you have to use the slow charge method more often than not. No one ever wants to bring this fact up. So time lost each year sitting and waiting for a charge is something to take into account. Plus you can use your petrol engine car for short and long trips, not so convenient, if you just have an electric car.
Right, but how much time would you waste in a mont... (show quote)


How much time do I waste in a month waiting for my car to charge up? Usually none. You don't need to run the car down to empty before you charge it. If I know that I am not going to use the car in the morning, I will plug it in and take advantage of $0.03 per kWh super off peak electric rates. The car lets me know when it is finished, or if I decide to use it, I just stop the charger. If I am going to use the car in the morning, and I think that I need to charge, I plug it in, and at 7:00 pm, when the off peak hours start, the car starts to charge. Depending on how low the battery is, I might be asleep when it finishes.

The only time I use the Supercharger is on long road trips. We make a trip from Scottsdale to various places in CA several times a year. I start with the car at 100% from charging overnight. For trips to SoCal, two charging stops along the way, 20 or 25 minutes each. Don't charge to 100%. Those are pit stops. When I drove my ICE Altima for the same trip we made one pit stop, so the difference in wasted time is minutes.

The only time it takes hours to charge the battery is when it is really low, and that is done at home when we are sleeping. Not much wasted time after all.

There seems to be a misunderstanding about charging on the road. If your battery is down below 10% (a really bad idea) and you want to charge to 100%, it will take an hour to an hour and a quarter. On the other hand, arriving at the charger with 20% and charging to 70% takes about 20 minutes. Yes, longer than a gas fill up, but there is always the pit stop to consider.
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Mar 8, 2023 00:40:43   #
BebuLamar wrote:
Since a gasoline engine is so inefficient, only about 1/3 of the energy is converted to mechanical energy to move the car. 2/3 is wasted as heat and thus in very cold whether it doesn't need to burn any more fuel to heat the car. Even a small engine car it wastes enough heat to heat the car and to be taken out via the radiator.
The electric motor is very efficient so in cold weather it has to draw extra power from the battery to heat the car interior.


The heat for heating the car doesn't come from the motors. In the Model Y it comes from a heat pump. The heated seats and the heated steering wheel are very decadent. They also let you turn down the heat, and save some battery power.
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Mar 8, 2023 00:36:26   #
Harold Stetson wrote:
I am surprised that since they use oil for cooling and it wanders through the engine that it wouldn't need oil changes much sooner than that. I was at an EV seminar recently and they talked about how the cooling oil will collect micro metal particles and need changed. Surprised it isn't more often than that. You don't have the really cold weather in the coast of California. How does cold affect a Lithium compared to lead acid?


No oil "wanders through the engine." The motors are sealed, and air cooled. Coolant is use to keep the battery temperature down, and also to heat the battery under cold conditions. The battery coolant does not need to be changed. As far as I can remember, the only fluids that need attention are the windshield wiper fluid, and the brake fluid.
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Mar 8, 2023 00:15:54   #
Reuss Griffiths wrote:
Where do you suppose the power comes from at those charging stations? Not the electric company. They have on-site, diesel electric generators to produce the electricity. If the electric company supplied the power, it would be at least 440 volt that is generally only located in highly industrial areas.

As far as the cost of electricity, once more and more power is devoted to transportation, the cost of electricity will rise even if they build new power plants. As demand goes up, the price will rise and not just for electric cars but for all electrical use, stove, lights, heaters, air conditioning, etc. So where is all of this savings going to come from? Be a cold day in !@%) when we build enough nuke plants to cover the increased demand.
Where do you suppose the power comes from at those... (show quote)


There are no diesel generators at the Supercharger Stations. Many of them are in shopping centers. The power absolutely comes from the local power company. Before Tesla installs a Supercharger station, they do a site survey and determine if there is enough power available. Tesla Superchargers come in 3 sizes, 72kW, 150kW and 250kW. I understand the 350kW chargers are on the horizon. The Supercharger station on I-10 in Quartzite, AZ has 8 150kW stalls and 28 250kW stalls. That sounds like a lot of power. Here is the trick: when I connect my car to the 250kW charger, I see the charge rate goes all the way up near 250kW. That lasts only a short time, with the charge rate coming down pretty quickly. Even though there are a lot of stalls, everybody gets there at a different time, so the peak levels out. Not to mention that I have never seen more that six or seven cars there at one time. The amount of power needed at any given time is a lot less than it appears to be.
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Mar 8, 2023 00:01:41   #
Harold Stetson wrote:
What kind of power base do you need to run a quick charge on a Tesla? Around here most homes are 200 amp service and depending on what time of day it is there isn't a lot to spare. We live on a farm and pump our own water and have a heat pump. I made the mistake of putting in a tankless electric water heater which can draw 113 amps on it's own. We work around that during fires and ice storms but probably don't want to live that way all the time.


I use the Tesla Wall Connector, which connects to a 220V line. To utilize the full available power from this device, it need to be connected to a 60 A breaker. Peak charging current is in the range of 45-48 amps. It takes 4-5 hours to charge from 10% to 90%. After a while the current tapers off until it is very low as the battery comes toward full charge.
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