I believe the distortion is what happens with a wide angle lens--perspective is distorted. Never could figure out why some fought that idea so strongly here. Do you know?

...'dis ol' frog LOVES seeing' you toads licking' youselves 'n each other....

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[quote=E.L.. Shapiro]Hi, Bob!

I read you kind comments last night and took the time to give your suggestions some serious thought before responding.

After several years of my participation in this forum, I have concluded that this site is not the best platform for serious critiquing, let alone any kind of "formal" education. It is not a school, a place of higher education or even a paid correspondence course in photography. I am not a professor- I suppose I am a decent instructor. There is no curriculum or program and no set criteria for critique, again, let alone education. Even if there were a "template" for critique, many folks have expressed their disdain for "rules" or standards in art. Even if all theses elements were in place, the fact that the forum is a FREE resource, many people, in my experience, place little value on what is obtained cheaply- too bad!

Effective critiquing is a collaborative effort between the submitter and the critics. At the very least, the submitter has to be receptive to the entire concept or constructive criticism and not misconstrue it an insult or gratuitous degradation of their work. The submitter should be able to take the criticism from who it comes, that is, only seek critiques from photographers they respect and want to learn from. Many folks just can't deal with unsolicited advice so the critics should confine their remarks to people who want their opinion. Again, this isn't a school or a classroom and folks are not obligated to attend lectures, submit their work for marks or evaluation so it all has to happen on a volunteer and cooperative basis. That is a tall order around theses p[arts.

There seem to be too many extreme attitudes on bother ends of the spectrum. Some folks are so egotistically attached to the work that the won't even tolerate a sidelong glance when someone is viewing their work and consider it a sign of extreme disapproval and others preface their request for a critique with "I have thick skin so go ahead ad rip my work apart"! Both approaches are counterproductive to the concept of fair and constructive critiquing. Unfortunately as well, some folks will issue harsh, skating criticisms that are uncalled for. All of this makes for a bad mix.

Another discouraging factor is the elements of vitriol and hateful exchanges that stream through this site. It is not confined to this forum and is now prevalent in our society. Disagreeing parties engage in name-calling, mud-slinging, dirt-digging, and some immature and despicable conduct. This environment is not conducive to critique. The simple concept of agreeing the disagree and carrying on with amicable relations is rare.
Oftentimes minor disagreement turns into protracted combative arguments that span many pages and even spread int other threads and sections. The original topic soon deteriorates or disappears early in the exchanges and ongoing angst continues over off-topic issues of semantics, etymology, and vulgarity. People's mental health is attacked, accusations of all sorts emerge and the is usually no moderator intervention. Some people here will often deride long posts or critiques but when someone makes a mistake and apologizes, the apology is never long enough.

Pretty bad, eh? Believe it or not, this not a condemnation of this forum, As folks exclaim nowadays, "it is what it is" and the forum can be a good and helpful community, a good resource as long the expectations of the members do no exceed reality.

I am a glutton for good critiques. When I started in professional photography, solid, constructive and expert critique was the foundation of my learning my trade. I woud enter every print competition I could find and afford just so that I could attend the open critiques. I took my lumps and my accolades- more lumps at first! Many folks submit their images just for the accolades and that can lead to lots of unhappiness or blissful ignorance. To be fair, not everybody wants education critiques and continuous challenges, the just wat to enjoy their craft, have fun and socialize with like-minded people. Ain't anything wrong with that.

In terms of editing others work- even for illustrative and teaching purposes. That like swinging at a hornets' nest with a baseball bat! Although, I must admit, however, that my most effective training tools were overhead and opaque projectors where I could overly image with crop marks and directional lines without marking up the originals. I certainly respect copyright laws but I always considered theses protective measures to prevent plagiarism, unauthorized commercial use of images and the attached financial implications and considerations- I never related theses to critique procedures.

As my signature says- I do believe that teaching and learning are important and honorable. The way things are going down lately, perhaps I should change that to "Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies" or like Kodak used to disclaim in all their materials' packaging- they weren't guaranteeing results beyond returning money for defects in the material or packaging. Since this is a free forum- if anyone doesn't like my advice, I don't owe anyone any money!

I don't believe a dedicated critique section will gain any traction- I thought the "Analysis" section is for that anyway. It would not be popular and would be the source of too much aggravation.

Ed[/quote]
Ed, your remarks reflect experience aged with wisdom. I understand your statement, "As my signature says- I do believe that teaching and learning are important and honorable. The way things are going down lately, perhaps I should change that to "Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies"

Perhaps it is just my bullheadedness, but I brought to teaching what I bring to writing and making, and to my membership here: try to get at the truth with an open mind and share freely. As you point out, that is not what many want. Same thing has happened in conducting critiques, jurying, teaching. A general rule I had was, "Try to help them understand about three times. If they still won't open up and/or take it personally, don't spend time with them when there are others who can profit." It becomes a matter of trying to keep the few from poisoning the whole endeavor, while focusing on the positive. I really do not care if the closed-minded don't like me because what I say threatens them.

The statement above could be totally a self-delusion. Fortunately, I have thousands of student evaluations, most all writing that, although I was "tough," I listened to all, approached them in a way they could understand, and was fair. Once or thrice every 100 or so, I would get the kind of thing I sometimes see here. I have come to think that these are people who feel unsure and threatened by new knowledge, so they act very defensively. As a side note, I never got to see student evaluations until I had handed in my grades. These affirmations do help when the hounds of hell whine, bark, or howl here. Also, sometimes a nasty attack has some truth to it.

With that in mind, we diverge a bit in our actions. I certainly admire your restraint. I am just not conditioned to fit in so well. I want to leave this post by repeating two of your paragraphs. Neither of us gives up hope, both of us see the good in the forum.

"Another discouraging factor is the elements of vitriol and hateful exchanges that stream through this site. It is not confined to this forum and is now prevalent in our society. Disagreeing parties engage in name-calling, mud-slinging, dirt-digging, and some immature and despicable conduct. This environment is not conducive to critique. The simple concept of agreeing the disagree and carrying on with amicable relations is rare.
Oftentimes minor disagreement turns into protracted combative arguments that span many pages and even spread int other threads and sections. The original topic soon deteriorates or disappears early in the exchanges and ongoing angst continues over off-topic issues of semantics, etymology, and vulgarity. People's mental health is attacked, accusations of all sorts emerge and the is usually no moderator intervention. Some people here will often deride long posts or critiques but when someone makes a mistake and apologizes, the apology is never long enough.

Pretty bad, eh? Believe it or not, this not a condemnation of this forum, As folks exclaim nowadays, "it is what it is" and the forum can be a good and helpful community, a good resource as long the expectations of the members do no exceed reality."

Well, bless your heart! By "we," I meant those whom I described as open and willing to learn.

More importantly, NONE of those in this thread disagree with me when it comes to the rules.

I certainly hope you wrote without hatred in that heart of yours, but, really, reading what was posted might tame uncalled for emotion.

Not sure what you mean. Working and saving in sRGB has never been a problem for me, whether I send to a snapshot print like Walgreen's or a professional, Fine Art printer (have sent both sRGB and Adobe (1998).

Would you please explain what "doesn't work" for you?

You are nothing but a distraction here, stating what's been done as though it hasn't, attacking people (projecting perhaps), and driving off decent discussion with your obsessive hatred. A Pyrrhic victory.

We who are interested will indeed find other places to conduct a strong discussion.

If you had read the thread, TriX, you would see that the dead horse of following the rules was laid to rest, with complete agreement by me.

Meanwhile, the discussion had drifted into those other topics I've listed, unfinished and a valid discussion, helpful to many who do not seem to understand them fully.

Why do you smack the poor old horsie yet again? it's OVER, and has been for weeks. Following the rules is what members should do. DISCUSSING the rules and broader implications is in the interest of free speech--and THINKING.

Really, I think I am more a laser cannon, picking off those who stand in the way of learning.

What utter nonsense. Your (JoeJoe} ignorance of Art and copyright law propels your small-minded response. I have not added a "Large border," but included but a portion of your shot into my Art. Big difference.

Here is my response to ADMIN:
Admin wrote:
"This is an automated notice.
Your topic "Composite--Holding things together." was deleted.
Action comment: i received a complaint from JoeJoe about the use of his image"

My reply:
"So, now you censor art. Do you know that such use of photos as I practice is PROTECTED under copyright law?
Do you really want this website to be of lesser reputation, dictated to by certain personality types?"

It is not "hijacking," as I explained, and you ignore. Perhaps you can stop being a thread cop, and let others participate or not?

Repeating, for those who might be interested and whose ideas I'd like to hear.
I'd like to keep this thread on interesting topics. It seems it touches on the following subjects, which I would like to hear more about ("Editing," as held by UHH, and the rule forbidding it without permission have been established; the discussion has moved to broader principles):
1. copyright (can your photos be used without permission and without violating copyright in places other than here)
2. critique "vs."(?) "attaboy" comments
3. principles of good critique other than personal taste.

All right!

I'd like to keep this thread on interesting topics. It seems it touches on the following subjects, which I would like to hear more about ("Editing," as held by UHH, and the rule forbidding it without permission have been established; the discussion has moved to broader principles):
1. copyright (can your photos be used without permission and without violating copyright in places other than here)
2. critique "vs."(?) "attaboy" comments
3. principles of good critique other than personal taste.

Let others write, please. We know your opinions.

Thanks for adding to the fun, ecobin and Blair Shaw Jr.

From contrast to composition to angle--all super. A most enjoyable photo.