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Masking – Ok I cannot sleep again... PS CC (or any product that uses masks)
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Feb 8, 2016 19:23:44   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
Photographer Jim wrote:
Ron, I was in no way criticizing your approach or efforts. I was, however, seconding Gene51's comments regarding Tony Kuyper's software. Besides PS itself, I am finding his actions and panel to be the most useful and effective software I have come across in a month of Sundays. I'm not sure if you have examined them for yourself, but they may very well offer the "complete freedom when creating masks" that you seek. You would have to decide that for yourself.

Long ago I purchased the set. I grew dis-satisfied with it.

My beef is not about the use of plug-ins. My beef is about folks who come out and say they are the new salt of the earth and pray to it as if it was a damned god.

These folks feel so threatened by anyone not doing it according to their faith that the troll every thread that tends to offer any type of option and learning.

Re-read the thread and you will see this as clear as... well...

Not ONE post is about the process being wrong or having made a mistake in it (I found one since I posted) but about blocking a sane discussion over the process.

I had to answer three PM in private because folks were not comfortable asking in public and one more question that I answered in PM after being asked in the 'main channel'.

So... There is an interest but a bunch of ass-wipes are making this a question of 'faith'.

I apologize for my initial dismissive answer.

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Feb 8, 2016 19:27:38   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
Oh, an update that will make everyone howl again...

I somehow managed to isolate the JPG color noise (marble effect) when using the masking as described here.

Trouble is... At the moment I am not sure how to use that to create a good correction.

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Feb 8, 2016 23:36:25   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
You are the only ass wipe here. A tiny bug. Nothing else. What you need is a photo 101 - someone to teach you how to take a properly exposed picture.

You need to pass first grade first. Don't worry about graduating. You'd flunk.

People are afraid to ask in this thread? LOL!!!!

No one sane would take advice from you. You can't even take a picture that is exposed properly. You get more and more pathetic. Let's see any of your shots that you have sold.

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Feb 9, 2016 00:51:55   #
Murray Loc: New Westminster
 
Rongnongno wrote:
Uh?


Posting the shot which some people say you "never" do.

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Feb 9, 2016 01:06:18   #
TheDman Loc: USA
 
Rongnongno wrote:
Long ago I purchased the set. I grew dis-satisfied with it.

My beef is not about the use of plug-ins. My beef is about folks who come out and say they are the new salt of the earth and pray to it as if it was a damned god.

These folks feel so threatened by anyone not doing it according to their faith that the troll every thread that tends to offer any type of option and learning.

Re-read the thread and you will see this as clear as... well...

Not ONE post is about the process being wrong or having made a mistake in it (I found one since I posted) but about blocking a sane discussion over the process.

I had to answer three PM in private because folks were not comfortable asking in public and one more question that I answered in PM after being asked in the 'main channel'.

So... There is an interest but a bunch of ass-wipes are making this a question of 'faith'.

I apologize for my initial dismissive answer.
Long ago I purchased the set. I grew dis-satisfie... (show quote)


We don't even know what process you're talking about, since you make absolutely no sense. All I know is that you said you are trying to create masks based on zones, and that " I am unable to find the range of luminosity needed for each zone". And I told you that someone else has already created exactly that. You then stuck your fingers in your ears and screamed because you don't want to hear it.

Have you ever heard the phrase "reinventing the wheel"? Please explain to us why that is NOT what you're doing.

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Feb 9, 2016 01:07:44   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
Murray wrote:
Posting the shot which some people say you "never" do.


Sorry that shot doesn't count - and as you can see we are right - with the size of his ego, if he felt that he had a good enough shot, he'd post it in a heartbeat - so if wrongy, doesn't think he has a good shot, he IS ready for the very basics, never mind masks.

Found a new masterpiece from him

http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-361491-1.html

Are we serious?

http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-330303-1.html

http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-293295-1.html

http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-289703-1.html

I could go on, but why?

That D800e is sure wasted on him.

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Feb 9, 2016 01:08:47   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
TheDman wrote:
We don't even know what process you're talking about, since you make absolutely no sense. All I know is that you said you are trying to create masks based on zones, and that " I am unable to find the range of luminosity needed for each zone". And I told you that someone else has already created exactly that. You then stuck your fingers in your ears and screamed because you don't want to hear it.

Have you ever heard the phrase "reinventing the wheel"? Please explain to us why that is NOT what you're doing.
We don't even know what process you're talking abo... (show quote)


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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Feb 9, 2016 03:55:14   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
TheDman wrote:
We don't even know what process you're talking about, since you make absolutely no sense. All I know is that you said you are trying to create masks based on zones, and that " I am unable to find the range of luminosity needed for each zone". And I told you that someone else has already created exactly that. You then stuck your fingers in your ears and screamed because you don't want to hear it.

Have you ever heard the phrase "reinventing the wheel"? Please explain to us why that is NOT what you're doing.
We don't even know what process you're talking abo... (show quote)


What part of the following process is hard to understand?
Rongnongno wrote:
I am in the process of creating actions to create masks that will use the zone system instead of the 'regular' mask creating actions (That I have already hacked to death - See long ago postings).

I have basically discarded the mask* Level** option for being too wide and basically crap (in my opinion). I have selected the curve*** option instead. The mask then is much more pointed and can be made to adjust the output more precisely than when using Level.

I get the feeling that I am digging my own grave here...

Anyway, I am unable to find the range of luminosity needed for each zone. I have tried three different charts (downloaded from internet) and found three different value when probing them for value... If you have those, can you post them?

--
* Alt-Click To enter the mask edit mode
** Ctrl-L Level adjustment undo-able, this is not a layer****
*** Ctrl-M Curve adjustment undo-able, this is not a layer
**** This is undo-able only by using Ctrl-Z after the edit. If you do something else after that, CRTl-Z becomes a problem, better start the mask edit from scratch...

------
Here is how to try:
Open any image, it does not matter.
Click on channel tab
Ctrl-Click on RGB channel
Click on mask icon
Name this 'Base' (You will need it to compare the masks created)
Remove the selection (Ctrl-D)
Duplicate the Base mask three times
Name:
Mid-range - Narrow
Mid-range - Wide
Mid-range - X-Wide

Click on Mid-range - Narrow
Ctrl-m to enter the Curve option
On the lower point to the left enter the values 0/111
Click anywhere to create a middle point, enter the values 127/127
On the upper point on the right enter the values 0/143
This create the most restrictive Zone 5, the range is only 32 and the output 50% (127)
Click OK
Note that this mask change is permanent and you cannot adjust afterward.

Click on Mid-range - Wide
Ctrl-m to enter the Curve option
On the lower point to the left enter the values 0/95
Click anywhere to create a middle point, enter the values 159/127
On the upper point on the right enter the values 0/159
This create a restrictive Zone 5, the range is 64 and the output 62% (159)
Click OK

Click on Mid-range - X-Wide
Ctrl-m to enter the Curve option
On the lower point to the left enter the values 0/63
Click anywhere to create a middle point, enter the values 255/127
On the upper point on the right enter the values 255/191
This create a restrictive Zone 5, the range is 64 and the output 100% (255)
Click OK

You have three very different Mid range Masks

You should experiment on your own with this stuff as it will allow you to create incredibly pointed masks.

The interest in using this that you not have to mess with inverting the mask in order to adjust the dark. Ctrl-Click on the channel mask to select it.
Click on RGB (if you have not done so already)
Click on adjustment layer, the mask is created, as usual when using a selection to create a layer.
I am in the process of creating actions to create ... (show quote)

A wheel once was just a disk of wood then it was circled with iron then he had spokes then it had flat metal springs then it had hard rubber then it had inflatable tires then it had bearings then it had suspension then...

The wheel is being constantly reinvented/improved if you had not noticed.

So, yes, I am participating in improving on a process to create luminosity masks, not by being the first doing this but by publishing it.

If only you even tried this BEFORE making an objection because you have 'plug-ins'.

" I am unable to find the range of luminosity needed for each zone" was correct at the time. I did not find references that matched. Since I have them so... That part is now gone.

And yes, I do not want to hear it (plug-ins and all that stuff). When I used the TK they were nice, no question but as I stated they did not do what I needed and was left wanting. So, I got rid of them after a few months and made my own the hard way first then I discovered that I could use Levels and Curves on masks, among other things so...

Here you are, getting all upset by this simply because you fail to try what is offered because, once again, you have 'plug-ins'.

As to the error I found? I made the thing more complicated than needed simply because I said to use channels* when you can create the initial selection on the fly (Ctrl-Alt-Shift-2 ~ RGB channel Ctrl-Click shortcut), create the new layer and the selection becomes the mask that then can be edited using Alt-Click on mask. This is much faster.

-----
* If I write actions to create feathered zone this step is needed since I have no clue as to what an user will do with the mask.

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Feb 9, 2016 04:03:32   #
georgevedwards Loc: Essex, Maryland.
 
Fascinating discussion. After 15 yrs of Photoshopping masks still elude me. I have recently got a luminosity mask plugin with a whole range of presets from higlight to shadows, but I still lack a real undertanding. Oh well.

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Feb 9, 2016 06:25:23   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Rongnongno wrote:
... What part of the following process is hard to understand? ...

I can tell you in a single word why it makes no sense - context - there is none.

The problem - You do not describe the problem you are trying to solve and you don't show us a "before" image.
The process - You go to great length to describe a specific series of steps using your chosen software. They are too specific to apply to other problems or different software.
The result - You don't show us the result because you admit that you have never succeeded - there is no "after" image.

While you are writing you are looking at a specific image so the problem is visible only to you but you don't show us the image or even vaguely describe it. Is seem as though you are ashamed of the images you create.

You go to great lengths to describe a process that you admit you cannot get to work and you leave out the most important parts - the before and after.

You leave out the most important element of all - how to avoid the problem in the first place.

Why should anyone attempt to understand what you are going on about endlessly? You don't seem to know what you are talking about.

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Feb 9, 2016 09:43:27   #
TheDman Loc: USA
 
Rongnongno wrote:

What part of the following process is hard to understand?


Hmmm, maybe the part that begins "I have basically discarded the mask* Level** option for being too wide and basically crap (in my opinion). I have selected the curve*** option instead. The mask then is much more pointed"

That makes not one lick of sense. Levels and curves are just adjustments, they don't inherently have any masks. How "Levels can be too wide" is something that only makes sense in your mind.




Rongnongno wrote:

When I used the TK they were nice, no question but as I stated they did not do what I needed and was left wanting. So, I got rid of them after a few months and made my own the hard way first then I discovered that I could use Levels and Curves on masks


Uh, you can do that with Kuyper's masks too. Not only CAN you use Curves and Levels with his masks, but he has built-in buttons that automatically create Curves or Levels adjustment layers with your mask of choice applied! See the screenshot below.

What I gather from this is that you just didn't comprehend a bit of what you were looking at when you had the Kuyper panel. This is like a guy trying to reinvent the wheel when he doesn't even know that it rolls.



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Feb 9, 2016 10:27:00   #
lorenww Loc: St. Petersburg
 
Other than the haters, this is good information.
I myself do not like the canned plugins.
On a side note I do use unsharp mask....
But before I do there are 12 steps I go through so that sharpening only sharpens the edges and details without all of those artifacts you see on sharpened images.

I like to get under the hood and make my own tweaks.

Ron has some great ideas and I like how he works hard to get the final results.

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Feb 9, 2016 10:30:22   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
lorenww wrote:
... Ron has some great ideas and I like how he works hard to get the final results.

What results? He has never shown us any.

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Feb 9, 2016 10:54:02   #
TheDman Loc: USA
 
lorenww wrote:

On a side note I do use unsharp mask....
But before I do there are 12 steps I go through so that sharpening only sharpens the edges and details without all of those artifacts you see on sharpened images.


Just like the Tony Kuyper actions do with a single click. It even sharpens in two stages - one at 60% larger than final size - and all are completely adjustable.

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