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What happens when you set your camera to Adobe RGB?
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Apr 29, 2022 12:19:42   #
joecichjr Loc: Chicago S. Suburbs, Illinois, USA
 
PlymouthWoodworker wrote:
Thanks CHG-CANON for your quick response and for taking the time to research my printer. From what you said, it appears that the editor (in my case PSE) assigns the color space to the file it outputs, correct? I always change the color space to Adobe RGB as soon as I open a directly file from Camera Raw. I assume this is the best way to proceed if I use Topaz Studio or NIK during the editing process. That way those plug-ins will work in the RGB space (yes/no?). Regarding the question about posting RGB images, I've attached two, and you can judge if the color looks OK.
Thanks again for your excellent input.
Thanks CHG-CANON for your quick response and for t... (show quote)


Gorgeous, eye-catching shots ⭐☀️💛☀️⭐

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Apr 29, 2022 12:21:17   #
joecichjr Loc: Chicago S. Suburbs, Illinois, USA
 
burkphoto wrote:
1) When you open a raw file in ACR, it is converted to an RGB bitmap in a working color space of your choice, at the bit depth you choose. Then it's converted to the MONITOR color space for viewing, editing, and adjustment. Once you make it look good on the monitor with the ACR toolset, and you click Open, it is converted from raw to the working color space and bit depth. Then, when you finish working with it, you choose the color space and bit depth you want and save it.

2) If your computer is set up properly, it will read all embedded and tagged profiles and make the correct conversion to your monitor or printer. If you strip off the EXIF data and the profile, however, so the JPEG contains ONLY the bitmap data, then unless the color space really WAS sRGB, most applications will display the file as if it were sRGB, and you will see it with false colors. Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB images look TERRIBLE when interpreted as sRGB.

Proper color management relies upon either an embedded profile (the profile itself is embedded in the image file), or a TAGGED profile (the profile is mentioned in the EXIF data which is embedded in the file). Color-managed applications will look first for an embedded profile, then for a tagged profile, then they may default to sRGB, and in some cases, NO color management (Generic RGB).

See examples. #1 was converted from raw to SRGB. #2 was converted from raw to Adobe RGB. #3 was converted from raw to ProPhoto RGB.

The PREVIEW versions of these had their profiles and EXIF stripped off when uploaded to UHH. The Adobe RGB preview looks dull. The ProPhoto RGB preview looks horrible! The DOWNLOAD versions should all look normal, because they are intact. MOST browsers will convert them correctly to the monitor color space.

Color management relies on EMBEDDED or TAGGED profiles. Embedded profiles are stuffed into the files themselves. Tagged profiles are just named in the EXIF table, and referenced by the operating system for conversion using a stored profile in the operating system.
1) When you open a raw file in ACR, it is converte... (show quote)


Dazzling results 🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈

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Apr 29, 2022 13:47:13   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
PlymouthWoodworker wrote:
Thanks again. One final question: If I assign sRGB to a photo in PSE and save it, is it sRGB forever? If I reopen the saved file and convert to Adobe RGB, do I really get back the extra gamut or are the extra colors lost permanently once it's been saved as sRGB?


Yes, it is limited to the tones of sRGB. You cannot regain tones lost by choosing a smaller color gamut.

This is why applications such as Adobe Lightroom Classic are so important. They preserve the original file, only making copies of it for export, printing, posting to the web, or sending to other applications. You keep all the information you recorded at the camera, so you can process it an infinite number of ways without loss.

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Apr 29, 2022 14:34:18   #
PlymouthWoodworker Loc: Plymouth, MA
 
joecichjr wrote:
Gorgeous, eye-catching shots ⭐☀️💛☀️⭐


Thanks joecichjr!

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Apr 29, 2022 14:41:09   #
PlymouthWoodworker Loc: Plymouth, MA
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Colorspaces are a 1-way street: RAW (no colorspace) > ProPhotoRGB (most data) > Adobe RGB > (less data) > sRGB (least data)

So, at the point an image file is ever saved with a colorspace applied, that position on this continuum is the most color-data it can ever contain. You can't unbake the cake at Adobe RGB and add the missing egg and another half-cup sugar and turn the image back into ProPhotoRGB.


That's what I thought. I promise this is my last question: If I open a file saved as sRGB and try to reassign to Adobe RGB and save the file, what happens? Does the file's EFIX data change, or is the request to change to Adobe RGB just ignored? Will this confuse the next program that opens or displays the file?

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Apr 29, 2022 15:23:10   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
PlymouthWoodworker wrote:
That's what I thought. I promise this is my last question: If I open a file saved as sRGB and try to reassign to Adobe RGB and save the file, what happens? Does the file's EFIX data change, or is the request to change to Adobe RGB just ignored? Will this confuse the next program that opens or displays the file?


If you assign the wrong profile, the file will appear horrible. If you CONVERT to another profile, the colors will be correctly displayed in that space, but you don’t get anything back that you already threw away.

What you might gain is “adjustment wiggle room.”

For instance, if I have a marginal JPEG in sRGB, I might convert it to a 16-bit TIFF in ProPhoto RGB for parametric adjustments (color, exposure, highlights, shadows). After using the finer control of high bit depth and wide gamut, I’d convert it back to an 8-bit JPEG in sRGB.

This can avoid some “stair-stepping” of smooth gradients like blue skies or delicate flesh tones. I have used this when the image is really important, but badly exposed. It can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, but it can do the best job possible of "normalizing" what is there.

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May 1, 2022 14:14:03   #
Sinewsworn Loc: Port Orchard, WA
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Answer: nothing good

Did I get your attention? Are you ready for another urban myth of photography to be knocked down? Here we go.

If you shoot JPEG, are you editing all your images always? If no, don't set your camera to Adobe RGB as you need to, at the minimum, output the colorspace to the general sRGB colorspace before sharing your images.

The choice of color space is a 50/50 choice, as in: sRGB you win, Adobe RGB you lose.

If you shoot RAW, you're wasting your time completely. Why? Your file names get an underscore in the first position like _MG0001.NEF and RAW files don't have a colorspace anyway. RAW files are the original sensor data. Camera sensors don't have a colorspace. Colorspace is an attribute of your digital editor or how the color data is encoded into a display format when the RAW data is converted to JPEG or TIFF, etc. That's how a tool like Lightroom or Topaz Sharpen can use ProPhotoRGB against your RAW files even though ProPhotoRGB isn't even an option in the camera menu options.

Do you shoot RAW and JPEG so you can share the JPEGs quickly? Now you're wasting your time by a factor of 2x. Your 'quick JPEGs' now require a colorspace conversion before sharing, defeating 'quick'. Your RAW files, as noted above, get a less useful filename while having no technical impact of using the Adobe RGB colorspace camera setting.

Now, let's get to the real urban myths:

Myth1 - Adobe RGB is better for printing

Really? Do you print your images? Does your printer (local or third-party) accept files in Adobe RGB? Have you ever compared two prints, one in sRGB against the same image in Adobe RGB? If you have any NO responses to these probing questions, then Adobe RGB is not really better for printing.

Myth2 - Adobe RGB is the better colorspace

Really? When your RAW sensor data was converted to an 8-bit JPEG, the 12- or 14-bit data from the sensor was 'compressed' into the maximum storage capabilities of the 8-bit JPEG format. To simplify the high-level idea, Adobe RGB emphasizes different colors / tones over sRGB, but it cannot 'store' more data in 8-bit than sRGB can store in the same 8-bit encoding. BTW, RGB is literally Red-Green-Blue and this colorspace data is simply all the color tones and relative brightness of mixing Red with Green with Blue to create the rich colors and tones of the world.

When should I use Adobe RGB?

I'm trying to argue: never.

If I haven't convince you yet, consider these four reasons / input requirements, all that must be met together:

a. You shoot in your camera's highest quality JPEG setting, i.e., the highest pixel resolution and the least JPEG compression.

b. You edit all your JPEGs in a workflow that reliably enforces a conversion to the sRGB colorspace for online sharing of the edited results.

c. Any transitions between software in your workflow maintain the ProPhotoRGB (or Adobe RGB) colorspace when the transition files are created.

d. You have a printer that accepts the Adobe RGB files and prints in the Adobe RGB colorspace (and does not perform a behind the scenes sRGB converion).

e. (Optional) You've paid extra (a whole lot extra) to buy an "Adobe RGB" monitor to see your colorspace during editing

Still not convinced? Here's two UHH links:

The first post shows a problem using the wrong colorspace on page 1 of the original post. Just skip to page 2 to see an example of the image converted and posted to sRGB. This is what you risk by using Adobe RGB:

https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-362867-1.html

Here's a longer, boring thread about the two colorspaces:

https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-364870-1.html
b Answer: /b nothing good br br Did I get your ... (show quote)


Great info! I already use sRGB.

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May 4, 2023 20:04:53   #
petercbrandt Loc: New York City, Manhattan
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Answer: nothing good

Did I get your attention? Are you ready for another urban myth of photography to be knocked down? Here we go.

If you shoot JPEG, are you editing all your images always? If no, don't set your camera to Adobe RGB as you need to, at the minimum, output the colorspace to the general sRGB colorspace before sharing your images.

The choice of color space is a 50/50 choice, as in: sRGB you win, Adobe RGB you lose.

If you shoot RAW, you're wasting your time completely. Why? Your file names get an underscore in the first position like _MG0001.NEF and RAW files don't have a colorspace anyway. RAW files are the original sensor data. Camera sensors don't have a colorspace. Colorspace is an attribute of your digital editor or how the color data is encoded into a display format when the RAW data is converted to JPEG or TIFF, etc. That's how a tool like Lightroom or Topaz Sharpen can use ProPhotoRGB against your RAW files even though ProPhotoRGB isn't even an option in the camera menu options.

Do you shoot RAW and JPEG so you can share the JPEGs quickly? Now you're wasting your time by a factor of 2x. Your 'quick JPEGs' now require a colorspace conversion before sharing, defeating 'quick'. Your RAW files, as noted above, get a less useful filename while having no technical impact of using the Adobe RGB colorspace camera setting.

Now, let's get to the real urban myths:

Myth1 - Adobe RGB is better for printing

Really? Do you print your images? Does your printer (local or third-party) accept files in Adobe RGB? Have you ever compared two prints, one in sRGB against the same image in Adobe RGB? If you have any NO responses to these probing questions, then Adobe RGB is not really better for printing.

Myth2 - Adobe RGB is the better colorspace

Really? When your RAW sensor data was converted to an 8-bit JPEG, the 12- or 14-bit data from the sensor was 'compressed' into the maximum storage capabilities of the 8-bit JPEG format. To simplify the high-level idea, Adobe RGB emphasizes different colors / tones over sRGB, but it cannot 'store' more data in 8-bit than sRGB can store in the same 8-bit encoding. BTW, RGB is literally Red-Green-Blue and this colorspace data is simply all the color tones and relative brightness of mixing Red with Green with Blue to create the rich colors and tones of the world.

When should I use Adobe RGB?

I'm trying to argue: never.

If I haven't convince you yet, consider these four reasons / input requirements, all that must be met together:

a. You shoot in your camera's highest quality JPEG setting, i.e., the highest pixel resolution and the least JPEG compression.

b. You edit all your JPEGs in a workflow that reliably enforces a conversion to the sRGB colorspace for online sharing of the edited results.

c. Any transitions between software in your workflow maintain the ProPhotoRGB (or Adobe RGB) colorspace when the transition files are created.

d. You have a printer that accepts the Adobe RGB files and prints in the Adobe RGB colorspace (and does not perform a behind the scenes sRGB converion).

e. (Optional) You've paid extra (a whole lot extra) to buy an "Adobe RGB" monitor to see your colorspace during editing

Still not convinced? Here's two UHH links:

The first post shows a problem using the wrong colorspace on page 1 of the original post. Just skip to page 2 to see an example of the image converted and posted to sRGB. This is what you risk by using Adobe RGB:

https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-362867-1.html

Here's a longer, boring thread about the two colorspaces:

https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-364870-1.html
b Answer: /b nothing good br br Did I get your ... (show quote)

------------------



Thank you about RGB vs sRGB, but my article was more about why would the image not save.
I take your sRGB critique seriously !

After l wrote to UHH, l tried the other 3 cards, they did allow saving to the card.
How to unlock the 1st cards ???
Peter

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May 4, 2023 20:08:55   #
petercbrandt Loc: New York City, Manhattan
 
Its about unlocking / getting permission / rights to unlock the SD card !

RGB vs sRGB is very insighful.

Peter

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May 4, 2023 20:10:46   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
petercbrandt wrote:
Its about unlocking / getting permission / rights to unlock the SD card !

RGB vs sRGB is very insighful.

Peter


Glad to help on the colorspace. Your issue in another thread dates to 2019 image files. Hopefully, if still shooting JPEG in AdobeRGB, you'll correct that setting before you capture another image in 2023.

Reply
May 6, 2023 09:06:32   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
As I understand the color space of sRGB, it produces files that display correctly on computer monitors.
CHG_CANON wrote:
Glad to help on the colorspace. Your issue in another thread dates to 2019 image files. Hopefully, if still shooting JPEG in AdobeRGB, you'll correct that setting before you capture another image in 2023.

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May 6, 2023 15:11:57   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
From my point of view most of the points made on this thread are peferences and opinions.

In checking several sites the general rule is sRGB for posting on line and RGB/Adobe RGB etc. for editing flexability and check on the printer's site for which to use if you print your own and if using a lab ASK THEM which they want.

That said, I usually just shoot RAW and convert as needed, I am retired and have the time.

When setting up my wife's camera for her to go some where I just set it to jpeg since she doesn't speak Photo Geek and wants to see her images without the "Grumpy Old Wizard" having to show her. If she then wants something edited I just do the best I can and don't mention what I could have done with RAW. For something important I give her my high end Sony Bridge Camera set to RAW+jpeg and then offer a prayer that my camera makes it home,preferrably in one working piece.
I will not be going to our daughter's medial school graduation, University of Virginia's campus is huge and the doctor says it will be too much walking for right foot, it needs a couple of more months to heal before I can walk that much.
So I will watch the ceremony live on zoom and get to see Jasmine in person a week later after she and Mom drive cross country following the van with her stuff - she is doing her residency at Harbor/UCLA only 50 miles from home starting mid-June.

Reply
May 6, 2023 21:27:47   #
leftyD500 Loc: Ocala, Florida
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Answer: nothing good

Did I get your attention? Are you ready for another urban myth of photography to be knocked down? Here we go.

If you shoot JPEG, are you editing all your images always? If no, don't set your camera to Adobe RGB as you need to, at the minimum, output the colorspace to the general sRGB colorspace before sharing your images.

The choice of color space is a 50/50 choice, as in: sRGB you win, Adobe RGB you lose.

If you shoot RAW, you're wasting your time completely. Why? Your file names get an underscore in the first position like _MG0001.NEF and RAW files don't have a colorspace anyway. RAW files are the original sensor data. Camera sensors don't have a colorspace. Colorspace is an attribute of your digital editor or how the color data is encoded into a display format when the RAW data is converted to JPEG or TIFF, etc. That's how a tool like Lightroom or Topaz Sharpen can use ProPhotoRGB against your RAW files even though ProPhotoRGB isn't even an option in the camera menu options.

Do you shoot RAW and JPEG so you can share the JPEGs quickly? Now you're wasting your time by a factor of 2x. Your 'quick JPEGs' now require a colorspace conversion before sharing, defeating 'quick'. Your RAW files, as noted above, get a less useful filename while having no technical impact of using the Adobe RGB colorspace camera setting.

Now, let's get to the real urban myths:

Myth1 - Adobe RGB is better for printing

Really? Do you print your images? Does your printer (local or third-party) accept files in Adobe RGB? Have you ever compared two prints, one in sRGB against the same image in Adobe RGB? If you have any NO responses to these probing questions, then Adobe RGB is not really better for printing.

Myth2 - Adobe RGB is the better colorspace

Really? When your RAW sensor data was converted to an 8-bit JPEG, the 12- or 14-bit data from the sensor was 'compressed' into the maximum storage capabilities of the 8-bit JPEG format. To simplify the high-level idea, Adobe RGB emphasizes different colors / tones over sRGB, but it cannot 'store' more data in 8-bit than sRGB can store in the same 8-bit encoding. BTW, RGB is literally Red-Green-Blue and this colorspace data is simply all the color tones and relative brightness of mixing Red with Green with Blue to create the rich colors and tones of the world.

When should I use Adobe RGB?

I'm trying to argue: never.

If I haven't convince you yet, consider these four reasons / input requirements, all that must be met together:

a. You shoot in your camera's highest quality JPEG setting, i.e., the highest pixel resolution and the least JPEG compression.

b. You edit all your JPEGs in a workflow that reliably enforces a conversion to the sRGB colorspace for online sharing of the edited results.

c. Any transitions between software in your workflow maintain the ProPhotoRGB (or Adobe RGB) colorspace when the transition files are created.

d. You have a printer that accepts the Adobe RGB files and prints in the Adobe RGB colorspace (and does not perform a behind the scenes sRGB converion).

e. (Optional) You've paid extra (a whole lot extra) to buy an "Adobe RGB" monitor to see your colorspace during editing

Still not convinced? Here's two UHH links:

The first post shows a problem using the wrong colorspace on page 1 of the original post. Just skip to page 2 to see an example of the image converted and posted to sRGB. This is what you risk by using Adobe RGB:

https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-362867-1.html

Here's a longer, boring thread about the two colorspaces:

https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-364870-1.html
b Answer: /b nothing good br br Did I get your ... (show quote)


This is quite an informative article. I am just a bit confused though. Are you suggesting one should shoot jpeg rather than raw? I am not a professional photographer, not even close, I just enjoy getting out with my camera and taking the best photos I can take. Do you suggest I shoot raw or shoot jpeg? I usually shoot raw, mainly because most of the articles I read, the author(s) say shoot raw. I value your opinion.

Reply
May 7, 2023 07:47:51   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
leftyD500 wrote:
This is quite an informative article. I am just a bit confused though. Are you suggesting one should shoot jpeg rather than raw? I am not a professional photographer, not even close, I just enjoy getting out with my camera and taking the best photos I can take. Do you suggest I shoot raw or shoot jpeg? I usually shoot raw, mainly because most of the articles I read, the author(s) say shoot raw. I value your opinion.


Thank you, glad to help. Regarding file types, no, I'm not suggesting what file format to use. Rather, based on the format you choose, use sRGB as the JPEG colorspace, or the sRGB setting for RAW, where is means nothing and doesn't change the file name. If you choose Adobe RGB for your JPEGs, understand you need to convert to sRGB before you post your must-be-edited JPEGs.

Reply
May 7, 2023 08:27:18   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Answer: nothing good

Did I get your attention? Are you ready for another urban myth of photography to be knocked down? Here we go.

If you shoot JPEG, are you editing all your images always? If no, don't set your camera to Adobe RGB as you need to, at the minimum, output the colorspace to the general sRGB colorspace before sharing your images.

The choice of color space is a 50/50 choice, as in: sRGB you win, Adobe RGB you lose.

If you shoot RAW, you're wasting your time completely. Why? Your file names get an underscore in the first position like _MG0001.NEF and RAW files don't have a colorspace anyway. RAW files are the original sensor data. Camera sensors don't have a colorspace. Colorspace is an attribute of your digital editor or how the color data is encoded into a display format when the RAW data is converted to JPEG or TIFF, etc. That's how a tool like Lightroom or Topaz Sharpen can use ProPhotoRGB against your RAW files even though ProPhotoRGB isn't even an option in the camera menu options.

Do you shoot RAW and JPEG so you can share the JPEGs quickly? Now you're wasting your time by a factor of 2x. Your 'quick JPEGs' now require a colorspace conversion before sharing, defeating 'quick'. Your RAW files, as noted above, get a less useful filename while having no technical impact of using the Adobe RGB colorspace camera setting.

Now, let's get to the real urban myths:

Myth1 - Adobe RGB is better for printing

Really? Do you print your images? Does your printer (local or third-party) accept files in Adobe RGB? Have you ever compared two prints, one in sRGB against the same image in Adobe RGB? If you have any NO responses to these probing questions, then Adobe RGB is not really better for printing.

Myth2 - Adobe RGB is the better colorspace

Really? When your RAW sensor data was converted to an 8-bit JPEG, the 12- or 14-bit data from the sensor was 'compressed' into the maximum storage capabilities of the 8-bit JPEG format. To simplify the high-level idea, Adobe RGB emphasizes different colors / tones over sRGB, but it cannot 'store' more data in 8-bit than sRGB can store in the same 8-bit encoding. BTW, RGB is literally Red-Green-Blue and this colorspace data is simply all the color tones and relative brightness of mixing Red with Green with Blue to create the rich colors and tones of the world.

When should I use Adobe RGB?

I'm trying to argue: never.

If I haven't convince you yet, consider these four reasons / input requirements, all that must be met together:

a. You shoot in your camera's highest quality JPEG setting, i.e., the highest pixel resolution and the least JPEG compression.

b. You edit all your JPEGs in a workflow that reliably enforces a conversion to the sRGB colorspace for online sharing of the edited results.

c. Any transitions between software in your workflow maintain the ProPhotoRGB (or Adobe RGB) colorspace when the transition files are created.

d. You have a printer that accepts the Adobe RGB files and prints in the Adobe RGB colorspace (and does not perform a behind the scenes sRGB converion).

e. (Optional) You've paid extra (a whole lot extra) to buy an "Adobe RGB" monitor to see your colorspace during editing

Still not convinced? Here's two UHH links:

The first post shows a problem using the wrong colorspace on page 1 of the original post. Just skip to page 2 to see an example of the image converted and posted to sRGB. This is what you risk by using Adobe RGB:

https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-362867-1.html

Here's a longer, boring thread about the two colorspaces:

https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-364870-1.html
b Answer: /b nothing good br br Did I get your ... (show quote)



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