How to take pictures inside Noah's Ark in Kentucky
Apr 13, 2019 17:11:12 #
Joexx wrote:
Faith is fine. But, it makes me mad to see many good people, who's faith is being manipulated. This is just another way to use faith to scam good people and get their money. I doubt it will change anyone's mind, but here is a very detailed analysis of all of the issues with the Noah's Arch story. I challenge any "true believer" to read it. https://ncse.com/cej/4/1/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark
Right On. The other day on the news was about this Black Hole, I having hard time trying to understand how that picture came about. Now try to explain it to people who live in the upper Amazon River area. You tell them a story something their can understand. 3000 years ago(?) the leardership of group could not explain what happen, so their came up with a story which people could understand. Over 3000 years(?) story has become fact. Was Moses fact or myth?
Apr 13, 2019 17:50:21 #
Having intellectual honesty cuts both ways. Scripture does not say God placed man (Noah) here and turned him loose to survive or build totally on his own. Saying it can't work is the same as saying God has limits and they are mankind discernible or that God must do everything in a matter that meets man's capability of understanding. Either God is who He says He is, with powers far beyond man's ability to comprehend, or He is a myth and the entire Bible has no basis in fact. If He is God then providing proper information on the building a unique ship that functions beyond what Man says should not happen, getting the animals in place and controlling their unique feeding needs for six months, and directing their paths at the end of the flood seems like a small thing for God - an impossibility for man. You keep coming back to insist that everything must meet man's logic or it is a myth. To an honest intellect there is enough information in all intellectual fields of endeavor that everything in our world is the result of an intelligent design - GOD.
Apr 13, 2019 18:38:31 #
Apr 13, 2019 19:38:06 #
Floyd said: "Saying it can't work is the same as saying God has limits and they are mankind discernible or that God must do everything in a matter that meets man's capability of understanding."
Falling back on the same, "We can't understand it but you have to believe in it anyway," argument is intellectually bankrupt. I believe in science because science is based on rigorously tested hypotheses and repeatable experiments that produce repeatable results. There is a chain of logic that we CAN understand, and it holds up. The evidence for evolution and an Earth billions of years old is overwhelming.
Floyd: "Either God is who He says He is, with powers far beyond man's ability to comprehend, or He is a myth and the entire Bible has no basis in fact."
Bingo! I'm glad we can agree on something!
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. In this case, claiming that a 600-year-old man built a ship that couldn't be built in the time given, without the needed technology, to hold an impossible number of impossible-to-gather animals, to house and feed them through a geologically and meteorologically impossible catastrophe, for which no empirical evidence exists - that's a lot of impossibles. That's an extraordinary claim.
If you tell me that your evidence is a book of ancient myths, written by nomadic tribesmen, that's not a very credible proof. If you tell me that all those impossibles were made possible because your invisible, omnipotent magician in the sky magically made them possible, that strains credulity as well.
Saying the Bible is true because it says it is presents a textbook example of circular reasoning. Sorry, but just because you choose to believe ancient myths doesn't constitute evidence that can speak of intellectual honesty.
Falling back on the same, "We can't understand it but you have to believe in it anyway," argument is intellectually bankrupt. I believe in science because science is based on rigorously tested hypotheses and repeatable experiments that produce repeatable results. There is a chain of logic that we CAN understand, and it holds up. The evidence for evolution and an Earth billions of years old is overwhelming.
Floyd: "Either God is who He says He is, with powers far beyond man's ability to comprehend, or He is a myth and the entire Bible has no basis in fact."
Bingo! I'm glad we can agree on something!
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. In this case, claiming that a 600-year-old man built a ship that couldn't be built in the time given, without the needed technology, to hold an impossible number of impossible-to-gather animals, to house and feed them through a geologically and meteorologically impossible catastrophe, for which no empirical evidence exists - that's a lot of impossibles. That's an extraordinary claim.
If you tell me that your evidence is a book of ancient myths, written by nomadic tribesmen, that's not a very credible proof. If you tell me that all those impossibles were made possible because your invisible, omnipotent magician in the sky magically made them possible, that strains credulity as well.
Saying the Bible is true because it says it is presents a textbook example of circular reasoning. Sorry, but just because you choose to believe ancient myths doesn't constitute evidence that can speak of intellectual honesty.
Apr 13, 2019 20:44:10 #
Ancient myths written by nomadic tribesmen- baloney. That statement puts only those living today into a individual with an intellect superior to all, particularly those holding thoughts that you disagree with. It doesn't take much reading of the Bible to find that humanity hasn't changed at all since time began in matters of getting along with others, choosing selfish attitudes to the harm of others and reading the signs of specific intelligent design. Secondly, the authors were kings, successful military tacticians, poets, businessmen, and, yes, a few shepherds.
Also, consider the statistical impossibility of every prophesy, with the exception of end times, have proven to be be true. Then, Jesus fulfilled seven prophesies over which He had no control. Statistical probability indicates there is a 1 in 10 with 17 zeros following of that happening; yet, He is a historical figure in the secular world. Each of His disciples, and thousands of educated people since then, died a horrible death they could have avoided by denying their message of Jesus' life, death and resurrection.
A careful consideration of our eye, or the human egg fertilization process, strongly indicates evolution is impossible. How does the worm decide it needs to build a cocoon, change to mush, solidify into an entirely different type of insect with wings and a different diet.
We could debate this until next month and unless we both have open minds, nothing is gained. I'm where I am due to serious doubts as a young man. I spent about 4 years researching every religion and lack therof, coming to the conclusion, later better expressed by C.S. Lewis, that Jesus is either who He said He was or He was crazy. Many intelligent persons down through time have chosen to seriously investigate (rather than blindly allowing someone else to think for them), and decided He was worth following.
I hope your next days are blessed.
Also, consider the statistical impossibility of every prophesy, with the exception of end times, have proven to be be true. Then, Jesus fulfilled seven prophesies over which He had no control. Statistical probability indicates there is a 1 in 10 with 17 zeros following of that happening; yet, He is a historical figure in the secular world. Each of His disciples, and thousands of educated people since then, died a horrible death they could have avoided by denying their message of Jesus' life, death and resurrection.
A careful consideration of our eye, or the human egg fertilization process, strongly indicates evolution is impossible. How does the worm decide it needs to build a cocoon, change to mush, solidify into an entirely different type of insect with wings and a different diet.
We could debate this until next month and unless we both have open minds, nothing is gained. I'm where I am due to serious doubts as a young man. I spent about 4 years researching every religion and lack therof, coming to the conclusion, later better expressed by C.S. Lewis, that Jesus is either who He said He was or He was crazy. Many intelligent persons down through time have chosen to seriously investigate (rather than blindly allowing someone else to think for them), and decided He was worth following.
I hope your next days are blessed.
Apr 13, 2019 22:52:57 #
You're quite facile with tossing staggeringly large numbers as the odds of prophecy fulfillment. Can you tell me how those odds were computed? You didn't give any numeric parameters, nor even mention these seven prophecies that were apparently fulfilled - no doubt with the Bible as your verifying authority. Once again, the book validates itself in a circular "cuz it says so" kind of way.
And secular historians now seriously doubt whether Jesus of Nazareth ever existed.
I'll see your C.S. Lewis and raise you Richard Dawkins. "Intelligent design" has been a weak attempt to disguise blatant creationism, and it has no scientific credibility. Anywhere that serious science is done. Your bringing it up shows exactly how collapsible your case is.
You can't provide a convincing argument as long as your postulates are based on the Hebrew myth-book and your invisible magician in the sky. Unless you can present independent and credible evidence, all your arguments are built on sand.
And secular historians now seriously doubt whether Jesus of Nazareth ever existed.
I'll see your C.S. Lewis and raise you Richard Dawkins. "Intelligent design" has been a weak attempt to disguise blatant creationism, and it has no scientific credibility. Anywhere that serious science is done. Your bringing it up shows exactly how collapsible your case is.
You can't provide a convincing argument as long as your postulates are based on the Hebrew myth-book and your invisible magician in the sky. Unless you can present independent and credible evidence, all your arguments are built on sand.
Apr 14, 2019 00:30:26 #
You did not reply to my questions on evolution.
Josephus, a non-Christian, Roman historian mentions Jesus as a person with disciples and of his parables. Other historians of that time indicate Jesus lived during the time of Jesus 'life. It is not circular reasoning when a Biblical prophesy( 400 or more years in advance) comes true and beyond Jesus' personal control. One may happen by chance; however, the town of His birth, the place of His birth,what He would be named, that He would spend time in Egypt, casting lots for His garments, how He would die, what would be paid to Judas for his dastardly betrayal. Given the possible population of the Middle East at that time, according to secular historians, of approximately 7-8 million fulfillment of these few instances provide the background for their calculation.
A myth book, by definition, cannot contain historical facts. Many of the happenings in the Bible have been confirmed by non-Christian historians. Matter of fact, another method used by these historians to verify information is the number of and manuscripts written by various writers and the proximity of their writings to the happenings they record. There are 5 copies of Caesar's Galic Wars, the oldest copy dating about 400 years after the initial publication; the oldest of the16 copies of Homer's Odyssey date more than 1,200 years after the writers life.; over 2,7 00 manuscripts of the New Testament written by eyewitnesses or those within one generation after Jesus' time on earth.
Since man has gotten so intellectually sophisticated he can call God an invisible magician in the sky, why does he not explain my two earlier observations, plus how weather functions and how it is controlled, how the earth continues of revolve at a specific rate, tilting back and forth of the axis more than 26 degrees, how one bang caused a universe in excess of 500 trillion miles across to come into being, and finally, since supposedly man has now gotten so smart, why hasn't he solved any of the social problems that have existed since time, as calculated by non-believers, began.
In my personal opinion, it takes greater faith to believe in evolution/science (with ideas that come and go with new information being disapproved or discovered) than it does to believe in God who does not change and is capable of doing much beyond man's ability of understanding or replicating.
I've read, as indicated above and since then, much of what has been written about science and, like C.S. Lewis, probably was an agnostic at best when I started. I properly used the scientific method (many scientists start their investigation with predetermined postulations guarantying a predetermined outcome) and did not necessarily like the result of my investigation; however, I decided to read the Bible with my mind aware of my studies.
If you have not read the Bible, then you are not qualified to pass judgment on its contents. I challenge you to read just the books of Isaiah, Matthew (pass over the initial genealogies) and Romans with an open mind.
Josephus, a non-Christian, Roman historian mentions Jesus as a person with disciples and of his parables. Other historians of that time indicate Jesus lived during the time of Jesus 'life. It is not circular reasoning when a Biblical prophesy( 400 or more years in advance) comes true and beyond Jesus' personal control. One may happen by chance; however, the town of His birth, the place of His birth,what He would be named, that He would spend time in Egypt, casting lots for His garments, how He would die, what would be paid to Judas for his dastardly betrayal. Given the possible population of the Middle East at that time, according to secular historians, of approximately 7-8 million fulfillment of these few instances provide the background for their calculation.
A myth book, by definition, cannot contain historical facts. Many of the happenings in the Bible have been confirmed by non-Christian historians. Matter of fact, another method used by these historians to verify information is the number of and manuscripts written by various writers and the proximity of their writings to the happenings they record. There are 5 copies of Caesar's Galic Wars, the oldest copy dating about 400 years after the initial publication; the oldest of the16 copies of Homer's Odyssey date more than 1,200 years after the writers life.; over 2,7 00 manuscripts of the New Testament written by eyewitnesses or those within one generation after Jesus' time on earth.
Since man has gotten so intellectually sophisticated he can call God an invisible magician in the sky, why does he not explain my two earlier observations, plus how weather functions and how it is controlled, how the earth continues of revolve at a specific rate, tilting back and forth of the axis more than 26 degrees, how one bang caused a universe in excess of 500 trillion miles across to come into being, and finally, since supposedly man has now gotten so smart, why hasn't he solved any of the social problems that have existed since time, as calculated by non-believers, began.
In my personal opinion, it takes greater faith to believe in evolution/science (with ideas that come and go with new information being disapproved or discovered) than it does to believe in God who does not change and is capable of doing much beyond man's ability of understanding or replicating.
I've read, as indicated above and since then, much of what has been written about science and, like C.S. Lewis, probably was an agnostic at best when I started. I properly used the scientific method (many scientists start their investigation with predetermined postulations guarantying a predetermined outcome) and did not necessarily like the result of my investigation; however, I decided to read the Bible with my mind aware of my studies.
If you have not read the Bible, then you are not qualified to pass judgment on its contents. I challenge you to read just the books of Isaiah, Matthew (pass over the initial genealogies) and Romans with an open mind.
Apr 14, 2019 03:26:08 #
Actually, I have read the Bible - or most of it, anyway (I confess I couldn't plow through some of the Pentateuch; I was never interested in who begat whom).
You say, "A myth book, by definition, cannot contain historical facts." By whose definition? So if I include one fact in a book of myths that renders all the myths true???? This is a totally untenable and indefensible statement.
Besides, having read most of the Bible, I know that, despite usually being published in one set of covers, it's not one book. It's not even the Old (Aramaic) and New (Greek) Testaments. It's the Gospels (of questionable historical value; as I said, the historical existence of Jesus is not settled as fact), the epistles of Paul, the Hallucination of John. It's some histories, some poetry, some more hallucinations (e.g., Ezekiel), some folk wisdom, some genealogy, and a lot of laws. And, in the part we're discussing, the first few chapters if Genesis - some myths.
Even a lot of Christians will tell you that these myths can't be taken literally, because they are so far from reality. Six days of Creation. A talking snake tricking Eve into the original sin. And, yes, Noah and the flood.
I don't need to defend evolution. Evolution is accepted as de facto scientific fact. The details get revised as more evidence comes to light, yes - and that's why it can be trusted. The overall picture stays the same; new discoveries mostly fill in the blanks. We admit that we don't know everything, and probably never will. The theory itself stands strong, backed by mountains of evidence - first fossils, then observations of evolution in action, and more recently, genetic evidence. It all holds together under the most rigorous testing.
Instead, you'd have me believe in magic, based on Hebrew myths. Sorry, my credulity doesn't go that far.
Good day to you.
You say, "A myth book, by definition, cannot contain historical facts." By whose definition? So if I include one fact in a book of myths that renders all the myths true???? This is a totally untenable and indefensible statement.
Besides, having read most of the Bible, I know that, despite usually being published in one set of covers, it's not one book. It's not even the Old (Aramaic) and New (Greek) Testaments. It's the Gospels (of questionable historical value; as I said, the historical existence of Jesus is not settled as fact), the epistles of Paul, the Hallucination of John. It's some histories, some poetry, some more hallucinations (e.g., Ezekiel), some folk wisdom, some genealogy, and a lot of laws. And, in the part we're discussing, the first few chapters if Genesis - some myths.
Even a lot of Christians will tell you that these myths can't be taken literally, because they are so far from reality. Six days of Creation. A talking snake tricking Eve into the original sin. And, yes, Noah and the flood.
I don't need to defend evolution. Evolution is accepted as de facto scientific fact. The details get revised as more evidence comes to light, yes - and that's why it can be trusted. The overall picture stays the same; new discoveries mostly fill in the blanks. We admit that we don't know everything, and probably never will. The theory itself stands strong, backed by mountains of evidence - first fossils, then observations of evolution in action, and more recently, genetic evidence. It all holds together under the most rigorous testing.
Instead, you'd have me believe in magic, based on Hebrew myths. Sorry, my credulity doesn't go that far.
Good day to you.
Apr 14, 2019 05:57:17 #
Floyd wrote:
The Ark is located a short drive North of Florence, Kentucky.
Cincinnati is a short drive north of Florence. The Ark is south of Florence - about 40 miles out of Cincinnati down I-75.
Apr 14, 2019 06:13:21 #
Wander1963 wrote:
The theory [evolution] itself stands strong, backed by mountains of evidence - first fossils, then observations of evolution in action, and more recently, genetic evidence. It all holds together under the most rigorous testing.
Just curious what evidence you have seen for evolution in action that goes beyond natural selection in a kind.
Apr 14, 2019 07:36:04 #
Bigmike1
Loc: I am from Gaffney, S.C. but live in Utah.
I don't see anything to argue about. Just let me say that I personally accept the scriptures and Moses, Abraham, Issac, Jacob (Israel), Joseph, Daniel, Isaiah and all the other prophets as prophets, seers and revelators. You are free to believe whatever you like. It ain't no skin off my teeth.
Apr 14, 2019 11:05:25 #
Interestingly, every civilization prior to ours believed in a higher power of some kind. Our generation is the first to try and remove any thought of a higher power and exalt man.
Let me close with this: All mankind dies; if you're right, I've wasted this life with spurious beliefs and you have nothing to fear. If I'm right, I have nothing to fear and you get to spend eternity in a terrible place.
Thank you for sharing your beliefs.
Have a blessed day.
Goodby.
Let me close with this: All mankind dies; if you're right, I've wasted this life with spurious beliefs and you have nothing to fear. If I'm right, I have nothing to fear and you get to spend eternity in a terrible place.
Thank you for sharing your beliefs.
Have a blessed day.
Goodby.
Apr 14, 2019 15:19:29 #
Shutterbug57 wrote:
Just curious what evidence you have seen for evolution in action that goes beyond natural selection in a kind.
Here's a striking example from recent research:
https://www.wired.com/2016/10/legendary-biologists-clocked-evolutions-astonishing-speed/
The Galapagos islands are an excellent "laboratory" in which to observe evolution, as Darwin himself noted, because of their isolation and the pressure of survival. The finches there are famous examples of adaptation and speciation, but the story referenced above raises the bar. Read it and be amazed.
Apr 14, 2019 15:52:28 #
Floyd wrote:
Interestingly, every civilization prior to ours believed in a higher power of some kind. Our generation is the first to try and remove any thought of a higher power and exalt man.
I'm taking "our generation" here to mean our civilization. Previous civilizations postulated gods to explain what was poorly understood - reproduction, storms and lightning, the origin of the Earth and universe. Our civilization is the first to reach so far into unknown and unravel the mysteries of science.
Floyd wrote:
Let me close with this: All mankind dies; if you're right, I've wasted this life with spurious beliefs and you have nothing to fear. If I'm right, I have nothing to fear and you get to spend eternity in a terrible place.
Ah, hell. What kind of a Supreme Being would come up with something like, "If you don't sing my praises you will be tortured forever"? Could such cruelty really come from a "loving" creator? It sounds more something from a four-year-old who pulls the wings off butterflies.
You really believe that? It's barbaric.
Have a nice day.
Apr 14, 2019 16:08:59 #
Wander1963 wrote:
Here's a striking example from recent research:
https://www.wired.com/2016/10/legendary-biologists-clocked-evolutions-astonishing-speed/
The Galapagos islands are an excellent "laboratory" in which to observe evolution, as Darwin himself noted, because of their isolation and the pressure of survival. The finches there are famous examples of adaptation and speciation, but the story referenced above raises the bar. Read it and be amazed.
https://www.wired.com/2016/10/legendary-biologists-clocked-evolutions-astonishing-speed/
The Galapagos islands are an excellent "laboratory" in which to observe evolution, as Darwin himself noted, because of their isolation and the pressure of survival. The finches there are famous examples of adaptation and speciation, but the story referenced above raises the bar. Read it and be amazed.
Finches producing finches with different finch characteristics because of a change of food supply is variation in kind. Nothing special there. Similar to the peppered moth observations.
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