Bridges Loc: Memphis, Charleston SC, now Nazareth PA

That's what I'm considering. I had some money set aside for the z8 (not all but enough to make the purchase a little more doable). Now I think I might use those funds and pick up the z100-400 which is getting rave reviews. I was thinking the 200-600 would eventually come out but thinking about it, I think the 100-400 would be better in weight and I don't think there could be any improvement in sharpness since everyone I have encountered has been very enthusiastic about how sharp this lens is.

Bridges Loc: Memphis, Charleston SC, now Nazareth PA

Thanks to all that responded. You've given me a lot to think about. I may eventually get a z8 but for now buying a good lens seems more prudent.

User ID

There was a green edge to the cold cuts.

User ID

Study long, study wrong.
IOW just do it :-)

smf85 Loc: Freeport, IL

A stacked sensor is always a BSI sensor as it has multiple layers of transistors stacked on top of the imaging transistors. If it weren't BSI the additional circuitry would block out all the light. Its biggest advantages are an extremely short path in the analog domain - the DA converters are right there - resulting in less noise, or higher ISO's for the same noise, and a faster readout. A stacked sensor makes a true global shutter possible; e.g. a electronic shutter without any rolling shutter artifacts at any time - Canon currently has an industrial sensor available that uses a global shutter.

The chip making industry is highly interlocked. It isn't surprising that Nikon uses Sony sensors - Nikon is a major player in the manufacturing tools part of the semiconductor industry and a extremely major player in the manufacturing tools sub-component industry. For that reason it stays out of the end product business.

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

You need to read how the new stacked sensors are made. They are definitely not BSI sensors. Sony has several articles explaining pretty much exactly how they do it.

gwilliams6

larryepage, Some stacked sensors are ALSO BSI. And other BSI sensors are NOT stacked. Please do better research.

The Sony A9 and Sony A9II have 24mp fullframe stacked BSI sensors, made by Sony.
The Sony A1 has a 50mp second-generation fullframe stacked BSI sensor made by Sony .
The Nikon Z9 and Nikon Z8 both have a 45mp fullframe stacked BSI sensor, made by Sony.
The Canon R3 has a 24mp fullframe stacked BSI sensor made by Canon.
The Sony RX10IV has a 20mp, stacked BSI 1" sensor made by Sony.

Stacked BSI CMOS sensors take the BSI CMOS concept to a further step. They place components in a similar arrangement, but the design also stacks the image signal processor and its ultra-fast DRAM memory into the same silicon. This makes readout speeds even faster.

Please know the facts before you post your inaccuracies. It makes you look bad, sorry.

Cheers and best to you.

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

Again...from Nikon's and Sony's literature...the Z8 and Z9 sensors are not BSI sensors. They are fabricated from three discrete layers and stacked together, hence the name. The sensor level is illuminated from the front. The D850 sensor is a monolithic device built from the bottom up with the sensor on the bottom and the substrate ground away as the last step. I don't care about the sensors in other cameras. They can be illuminated from the side and I'm ok with it.

It doesn't matter how you think it makes me look. Looking bad here is something of a badge of honor. This is how the sensors are made and how they function. Information is freely available.

Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

Where is this literature?
Many reviews say stacked BSI sensor.
Thank you in advance.

smf85 Loc: Freeport, IL

Then why does Tech Insights call it a BSI Stacked sensor? https://www.techinsights.com/products/def-2204-801.

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

I've started a new discussion with the description and a couple of links that will get you started. The short answer is that these folks are calling it by the wrong name. Then it will get parroted, as UserID likes to call out. Result is institutionalized error. Just like a lot of other gobbledegook that goes on in photography.

gwilliams6

Larry how dense can you be, goodness. Look it up, they ARE stacked BSI sensors. You are just wrong. Do a simple google search, or is that too hard to do. If you had actually clicked on the link in my earlier comment and looked at the actual illustration you would see that they are BSI with ADDITIONAL stacked layers. You dont really understand the science here at all , that is obvious.

They start with BSI sensors and add extra layers that make them stacked. They still are back-side illuminated. You somehow think they must be one or the other, but they are both BSI and stacked. Other cameras have BSI sensors that dont have the extra layers, and they are not stacked sensors.

Stacked BSI CMOS sensors take the BSI CMOS concept a step further. They place components in a similar arrangement, but the design also stacks the image signal processor and its ultra-fast DRAM memory into the same silicon. This makes readout speeds even faster.

From Imaging Resources: " The Sony A1 has the highest megapixel count of the three. It beats out the 45.7MP Nikon Z9 by a small margin. However, the Canon EOS R3 lags at 24.1MP. All three cameras incorporate a stacked, backside-illuminated CMOS image sensor."

From B&H Photo and Nikon in their intro to the Z9: "The core of the Z9 is the newly developed FX-format 45.7MP BSI stacked CMOS sensor. Its stacked design offers fast readout speeds and helps to reduce rolling shutter, and the BSI design contributes to impressive clarity and minimal noise when working at higher sensitivities."

From Canon-Europe: "Mastering movement at 30fps. At the heart of the EOS R3 is a backside-illuminated, stacked sensor – developed exclusively by Canon. It is faster and more sensitive than anything we've put in a camera before, which means better performance when you're shooting under pressure."

Do better research and know the facts, PLEASE Larry

I am done trying to help educate you.

Cheers and best to you.

(Download)

Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

That's fine. But take a look at your own examples. They are either stacked or BSI. Not both.

Bill_de Loc: US

"“CCD sensors are great for those who love the style of classic digital images, CMOS is for those who are looking for a camera sensor at an affordable range, BSI sensors will appeal to people who enjoy taking stunning night-time photographs, and Stacked Sensors are a combination of all of the aforementioned sensors but comes at a premium cost.”

https://techinspection.net/ccd-vs-cmos-vs-bsi-cmos-vs-stacked-sensor/

The picture posted by Mr. Williams makes it pretty clear, even to me!

Also found this:

Canon has developed a new 1-inch type, 4K, backside-illuminated stacked CMOS sensor that can provide up to 24 stops of dynamic range, the company has revealed

https://camerajabber.com/canon-1inch-4k-cmos-stacked-bsi-sensor-24-stops-dynamic-range/

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