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Tariffs - Who pays it?
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Jan 7, 2019 13:25:17   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
I will agree that the buyer pays the tariff but I believe the idea is to reduce the sales of the sellers product and increase the sales of the product from other sources, preferribly domestic. The tariff therefore attempts to punish or restrict one producer and encourage or help others.

This is what's known by the derogatory term "Crony Capitalism." The government essentially dictates which businesses will prosper at the expense of other businesses. For instance:

The U.S. Government puts tariffs on steel imports, thereby giving our steel producers a competitive edge by eliminating some of their competition. However, all of our industries that use steel to make their products will now suffer because they must pay a higher price for the steel, and the end consumer pays the extra difference. It comes out as a net loss for our economy.

This is also the reason that the number of lobbyists in Washington has exploded in recent decades. Every business is trying to get special favors from the Federal government, like tariffs on their competitors. If this favoritism for certain businesses suddenly disappeared, by just making the same exact rules for all businesses, then there would be no more need for lobbyists.

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Jan 7, 2019 13:29:18   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
ggab wrote:


It prevents the Chinese from flooding our market with cheap steel putting US workers out of work.

It also lowers the American standard of living by making U.S. consumers pay more for our products.

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Jan 7, 2019 13:32:59   #
thom w Loc: San Jose, CA
 
cheineck wrote:
All valid opinions... would anyone prefer Hillary?


As a matter of fact YES but why has a thread on Trump lying turned into one on the merits of tariffs?

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Jan 7, 2019 13:33:06   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
NCMtnMan wrote:
Tariffs aren't intended for the benefit of the government, but instead to create a level playing field for the manufacturers in a country.

I totally disagree. Tariffs are intended to distort the playing field in favor of the business who's competitors are shut out. An even playing field would be no tariffs at all.

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Jan 7, 2019 13:35:51   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
piloto caliente wrote:
Tariffs are great if you like Great Depressions (Smoot-Hawley) and Civil Wars (Morrill).

This is so true! Most people are unaware that the highest tariffs in our history occurred during the Great Depression. See what good it did for us back then!

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Jan 7, 2019 13:48:25   #
Howard5252 Loc: New York / Florida (now)
 
CPR wrote:
But, doesn't it look so much better for the Anti-Trump folks if they can get their sheep to look at Tariffs this way and not the way they are intended?

I'm looking at tariffs the way they work; there is no other way. I'm saying that the president is presenting it to the public as if China is putting money into the US treasury - they are not (just listen to what he says). Any money going into the US treasury because of the tariff is ours. The president knows this, hence, he's lying. This is not trolling - the president is at best ... mis-stating the facts and because he knows better, I call that lying.

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Jan 7, 2019 13:48:46   #
thom w Loc: San Jose, CA
 
Steven Seward wrote:
This is so true! Most people are unaware that the highest tariffs in our history occurred during the Great Depression. See what good it did for us back then!


Does this mean you are in search of a new prophet?

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Jan 7, 2019 13:54:57   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
thom w wrote:
Does this mean you are in search of a new prophet?

Hey at least it got us out of da Great Depression 🤒

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Jan 7, 2019 14:08:38   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
NCMtnMan wrote:
Understand. But, how do you suggest that we combat a country like China that is trying to destroy our economy by flooding the market with government subsidized products that are often the result of them stealing our companies intellectual knowledge and patents? These are not capitalistic countries. They are c*******t countries using the marketplace as a weapon.

I don't think there is much that you can do, short of invading these countries or blockading them. Many people tend to think that because the U.S. is so powerful, we can just make the rest of the World do what we want. We've gotten too used to our enormous influence. We can only trade with those who are willing.

Think of this scenario:

Two ten year-old boys are trading baseball cards, the same way countries trade products. Johnny has three Minnie Minoso cards (this will show you how old I am!) and Bobby has four Joe Nuxhall cards (anybody remember this guy?). Johnny says "I'll give you two Minnie Minoso cards for one Nuxhall card" and Bobby says "No." Then Johnny offers three Minoso cards and a pack of gum for one Nuxhall card. Bobby just says "No" and walks away. Both boys are no richer than they were before, but what can Johnny do? It is a free country so Johnny cannot force him, unless he wants to just go beat him up and take his cards.

In the case of America vs. China, both countries suffer economically by imposing tariffs on one another, or by reducing trade by any means. The big difference is that China is c*******t; they can make their people do wh**ever they want in regards to trade. We have e******ns, so any leader cannot get away with forcing people against their will for very long. There may be ways other than tariffs, of influencing Chinese behavior when it comes to the stealing of intellectual property, but that is not a trade issue, that is a copyright issue. You can only punish a country with trade if you are willing to punish your own country as well, and that doesn't make much sense to me.

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Jan 7, 2019 14:09:22   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
thom w wrote:
Does this mean you are in search of a new prophet?

I have no idea what you meant by that.

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Jan 7, 2019 14:15:02   #
Howard5252 Loc: New York / Florida (now)
 
Steven Seward wrote:
I totally disagree. Tariffs are intended to distort the playing field in favor of the business who's competitors are shut out. An even playing field would be no tariffs at all.

My comments don't deal with why or if tariffs work. I am simply pointing out that the president is saying that the money going into our treasury is China's ... It Is Not. He knows that and so he is lying to us.

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Jan 7, 2019 14:24:49   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
The worker who still has a job might be better off... As an IT professional
I watched many jobs be outsourced to India and some to Russia in the past 20 years. That didn't help the US IT workers. I saw the same thing with engineering in industry.

I'm not criticizing your post, because you brought of a number of good points, but I want to make a comment about losing jobs to other countries.

There is a big misconception that the U.S. is losing jobs. This is not actually the case. Jobs are changing at a rapid pace and it gives the impression that we are losing them because when workers lose their jobs, it makes big headlines. What does not make the headlines are all the new jobs that open up in their place.

A little known fact is that for some five or six years we have had a record number of unfilled jobs, about 5 or 6 million. Employers cannot find enough people to show up for work. This is due squarely on the fact that there are so many people on welfare who don't care to go out and work. We are at a low point of the percentage of people working, but at a high point for people on welfare. One out of three Americans is getting some sort of welfare at the moment. This is abominable, though it has been getting better recently.

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Jan 7, 2019 14:25:58   #
Howard5252 Loc: New York / Florida (now)
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
The worker who still has a job might be better off... As an IT professional
I watched many jobs be outsourced to India and some to Russia in the past 20 years. That didn't help the US IT workers. I saw the same thing with engineering in industry. GM liked sending engineering jobs to Mexico where an engineer cost 20 percent of what they did in the US. Then the Mexican engineers saw that if they could come to the US they could make many times what they make in Mexico. Meanwhile the un or under employed IT workers and engineers are not going to buy the ever increasingly expensive cars.

If corporations paid zero tax would that not be good. If they paid 100 percent taxes why would they bother being in business. The goal of business is to make money and build shareholder equity. As a business man I think Trump understands this much better than the average lawyer in congress. The debate comes down to what are the best mechanisms to get the desired results. This is where those who dislike tariffs don't want tariffs. Consumers/spenders pay for everything a successful business does other than growth investments, equity, that the business owns. Same as taxpayers pay for everything the government has or does outside of the money it borrows in our name.

What a Trump is really trying to do is level and create a fair marketplace. Some will say he is in fact distorting the free marketplace. But let's say that every other country can produce better steel for less money than the US. Would we be smart to not make any steel here and depend only on others? Some would argue yes, we should focus on other things. I would argue no because steel is important as a part of our country's defense readiness.
Bottom line is these are very complex issues and there are no easy answers. But China especially has been ripping us off for years thanks to the g*******t and our own leaders.
The worker who still has a job might be better off... (show quote)

My intent was not to debate whether tariffs work, economists have been doing that for years. It was only my intention to point out that the president is telling the public that the money generated by the tariffs going into the US treasury belongs to China - it does not. It is out money going in. That is all. The man knows better and he hopes that you and I don't - he is lying.

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Jan 7, 2019 14:28:14   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
Howard5252 wrote:
My comments don't deal with why or if tariffs work. I am simply pointing out that the president is saying that the money going into our treasury is China's ... It Is Not. He knows that and so he is lying to us.

I agree with you on that, though I'm not sure he is lying. Trump seems to know so little about trade that he might actually believe what he is saying is true.

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Jan 7, 2019 14:41:23   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
So if I accept your idea that because we have e******ns we can v**e in people who will do what we the people desire I have one question for you...why are we still paying income taxes? One of the fundamental rules of economics is that people tend to act in their own self interest...politicians would be no different, right.

If let's say we put a 1000 percent tariff on Chinese steel then it is likely that nobody here would by Chinese steel and no tariffs would be paid to our government treasury by US consumers. China would either sell less steel or sell to others, perhaps at lower prices. US suppliers might raise prices or increase their production or both.Economics is complicated.

Another thought, if i*****l a***ns are such a great benefit to our country then wouldn't they also be a great benefit to any other country's economy? But they seem to want to come here for some reason... Not to China or other economic powers...not that those countries would take them anyway.

Steven Seward wrote:
I don't think there is much that you can do, short of invading these countries or blockading them. Many people tend to think that because the U.S. is so powerful, we can just make the rest of the World do what we want. We've gotten too used to our enormous influence. We can only trade with those who are willing.

Think of this scenario:

Two ten year-old boys are trading baseball cards, the same way countries trade products. Johnny has three Minnie Minoso cards (this will show you how old I am!) and Bobby has four Joe Nuxhall cards (anybody remember this guy?). Johnny says "I'll give you two Minnie Minoso cards for one Nuxhall card" and Bobby says "No." Then Johnny offers three Minoso cards and a pack of gum for one Nuxhall card. Bobby just says "No" and walks away. Both boys are no richer than they were before, but what can Johnny do? It is a free country so Johnny cannot force him, unless he wants to just go beat him up and take his cards.

In the case of America vs. China, both countries suffer economically by imposing tariffs on one another, or by reducing trade by any means. The big difference is that China is c*******t; they can make their people do wh**ever they want in regards to trade. We have e******ns, so any leader cannot get away with forcing people against their will for very long. There may be ways other than tariffs, of influencing Chinese behavior when it comes to the stealing of intellectual property, but that is not a trade issue, that is a copyright issue. You can only punish a country with trade if you are willing to punish your own country as well, and that doesn't make much sense to me.
I don't think there is much that you can do, short... (show quote)

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