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Tariffs - Who pays it?
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Jan 7, 2019 14:48:24   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
So if I accept your idea that because we have e******ns we can v**e in people who will do what we the people desire I have one question for you...why are we still paying income taxes? One of the fundamental rules of economics is that people tend to act in their own self interest...politicians would be no different, right.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
If let's say we put a 1000 percent tariff on Chinese steel then it is likely that nobody here would by Chinese steel and no tariffs would be paid to our government treasury by US consumers. China would either sell less steel or sell to others, perhaps at lower prices. US suppliers might raise prices or increase their production or both.Economics is complicated.

Sounds like a fair assessment to me.

Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
Another thought, if i*****l a***ns are such a great benefit to our country then wouldn't they also be a great benefit to any other country's economy? But they seem to want to come here for some reason... Not to China or other economic powers...not that those countries would take them anyway.

It's pretty obvious that the rest of the World knows where the greatest opportunities for economic advancement and human rights are. The only people who don't know, are the extreme L*****ts in our own country.

Reply
Jan 7, 2019 15:01:58   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
My point would be that if we could elect politicians that would do what we want I would assume most v**ers would prefer to not pay income taxes. Much of what the Federal government is involved in is not within its constitutional powers in my opinion.

Steven Seward wrote:
It's pretty obvious that the rest of the World knows where the greatest opportunities for economic advancement and human rights are. The only people who don't know, are the extreme L*****ts in our own country.

Reply
Jan 7, 2019 15:11:55   #
thom w Loc: San Jose, CA
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
The worker who still has a job might be better off... As an IT professional
I watched many jobs be outsourced to India and some to Russia in the past 20 years. That didn't help the US IT workers. I saw the same thing with engineering in industry. GM liked sending engineering jobs to Mexico where an engineer cost 20 percent of what they did in the US. Then the Mexican engineers saw that if they could come to the US they could make many times what they make in Mexico. Meanwhile the un or under employed IT workers and engineers are not going to buy the ever increasingly expensive cars.

If corporations paid zero tax would that not be good. If they paid 100 percent taxes why would they bother being in business. The goal of business is to make money and build shareholder equity. As a business man I think Trump understands this much better than the average lawyer in congress. The debate comes down to what are the best mechanisms to get the desired results. This is where those who dislike tariffs don't want tariffs. Consumers/spenders pay for everything a successful business does other than growth investments, equity, that the business owns. Same as taxpayers pay for everything the government has or does outside of the money it borrows in our name.

What a Trump is really trying to do is level and create a fair marketplace. Some will say he is in fact distorting the free marketplace. But let's say that every other country can produce better steel for less money than the US. Would we be smart to not make any steel here and depend only on others? Some would argue yes, we should focus on other things. I would argue no because steel is important as a part of our country's defense readiness.

Bottom line is these are very complex issues and there are no easy answers. But China especially has been ripping us off for years thanks to the g*******t and our own leaders.
The worker who still has a job might be better off... (show quote)


It wouldn’t hurt you any to research Trump’s history a little bit. Read something he didn’t have written.

Reply
 
 
Jan 7, 2019 15:13:42   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
I will contend that it is hard to get lower sk**led labor to work when it is easier to sit home, collect government money and in many cases do drugs. We have to differentiate between good well paying jobs and low sk**l jobs. I think a big factor is that many companies don't want to pay good wages for sk**led workers. I think there are many sk**led workers on the sidelines that would be happy to work. Instead companies want more visas to bring in younger lower cost sk**led workers.i believe when a Trump came into office there were 94 million people out of the work force. So creating 4 million jobs and having even 8 million unfilled is still leaving a lot of people on the sidelines.

In the IT industry I have seen companies have mandatory requirements to use so much off shore resources on projects. I have also seen many projects where it was so hard to get any work of value out of these resources that they are not contributing but instead making more workload on the US project team members. That is a false economic advantage in my view.

Steven Seward wrote:
I'm not criticizing your post, because you brought of a number of good points, but I want to make a comment about losing jobs to other countries.

There is a big misconception that the U.S. is losing jobs. This is not actually the case. Jobs are changing at a rapid pace and it gives the impression that we are losing them because when workers lose their jobs, it makes big headlines. What does not make the headlines are all the new jobs that open up in their place.

A little known fact is that for some five or six years we have had a record number of unfilled jobs, about 5 or 6 million. Employers cannot find enough people to show up for work. This is due squarely on the fact that there are so many people on welfare who don't care to go out and work. We are at a low point of the percentage of people working, but at a high point for people on welfare. One out of three Americans is getting some sort of welfare at the moment. This is abominable, though it has been getting better recently.
I'm not criticizing your post, because you brought... (show quote)

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Jan 7, 2019 15:21:23   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
Shouldn't you be at the border picking up another Prius load of i******s...

I am sure you could provide us with some great unbiased reading materials...well we are waiting...

thom w wrote:
It wouldn’t hurt you any to research Trump’s history a little bit. Read something he didn’t have wtitten.

Reply
Jan 7, 2019 15:27:00   #
LWW Loc: Banana Republic of America
 
Bunko.T wrote:
I agree the consumer pays all. But is it not a smoke & mirrors way of hoodwinking the sheep into thinking he's doing the consumer a good turn?
Even if he cuts company tax but puts Tarif on the imports, the consumer is no better off, & neither is the nation. The local product is no cheaper, they pay tax, with discount, a little less, but more than covered by Tarif, giving govt a bonanza.
If the Tarif was removed & tax break made it price competitive, making it more buyer friendly, the govt gets less. So who is he fooling?? The consumer to pay more tax.
Just a Pea & Thimble way to achieve what? The consumer gets it in the neck always.
Like the Mexicans paying for the wall. Yeah?? You the tax payers pay for it???
I agree the consumer pays all. But is it not a smo... (show quote)


In your mind the national/world economies are essentially static ... which is a myth.

When country A tariffs an item at 5% and country B tariffs it at 25%, country B will flourish and country A will suffer.

This is what has happened to the USA, its economy and its workforce.

What Trump has actually presented is a tariff free trade agreement with several nations, but steadfastly refusing to allow imbalanced tariffs to continue.

Does the end buyer pay for the tariffs? Of course they do, and I'm glad to see my l*****t friends finally accepting that taxes are not paid by the corporations. Its paid by the end purchaser.

How does the economy benefit from tariffs? It tilts the playing field back to level and the economy benefits because more of the product becomes available from domestic suppliers and the foreign trade deficit recedes because less is imported.

In a tariff free economy the most efficient country will thrive and the least efficient will suffer.

Reply
Jan 7, 2019 15:30:20   #
thom w Loc: San Jose, CA
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
Shouldn't you be at the border picking up another Prius load of i******s...

I am sure you could provide us with some great unbiased reading materials...well we are waiting...


Sorry to offend. Had no idea you would be so opposed to reading unbiased material. I didn’t even direct you to any particular material.

Reply
 
 
Jan 7, 2019 15:32:08   #
thom w Loc: San Jose, CA
 
LWW wrote:
In your mind the national/world economies are essentially static ... which is a myth.

When country A tariffs an item at 5% and country B tariffs it at 25%, country B will flourish and country A will suffer.

This is what has happened to the USA, its economy and its workforce.

What Trump has actually presented is a tariff free trade agreement with several nations, but steadfastly refusing to allow imbalanced tariffs to continue.

Does the end buyer pay for the tariffs? Of course they do, and I'm glad to see my l*****t friends finally accepting that taxes are not paid by the corporations. Its paid by the end purchaser.

How does the economy benefit from tariffs? It tilts the playing field back to level and the economy benefits because more of the product becomes available from domestic suppliers and the foreign trade deficit recedes because less is imported.

In a tariff free economy the most efficient country will thrive and the least efficient will suffer.
In your mind the national/world economies are esse... (show quote)


So, why does Trump feel the need to lie about who is paying the money?

Reply
Jan 7, 2019 15:37:08   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
My point would be that if we could elect politicians that would do what we want I would assume most v**ers would prefer to not pay income taxes. Much of what the Federal government is involved in is not within its constitutional powers in my opinion.

Well, I wish we could elect politicians that would do what we want! The trouble is, we get limited choices. And not all v**ers want to lower taxes. I live in Cleveland, Ohio, where real estate tax hikes, school levies, and football stadium construction all get yes v**es from the liberal populace. We are the highest taxed area in the State and have the worst school system and worst roads at the same time. I wish more v**ers were like you.

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Jan 7, 2019 15:41:30   #
LWW Loc: Banana Republic of America
 
thom w wrote:
So, why does Trump feel the need to lie about who is paying the money?


Why are you fixated on that while being peachy with Barry lying the average US family out of $20K?

Answer that honestly and you will find enlightenment.

Reply
Jan 7, 2019 15:43:31   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
I will contend that it is hard to get lower sk**led labor to work when it is easier to sit home, collect government money and in many cases do drugs. We have to differentiate between good well paying jobs and low sk**l jobs. I think a big factor is that many companies don't want to pay good wages for sk**led workers.

This is only one anecdote, but it says a lot. Several years ago the Cleveland School Board enlisted the help of the Federal Government to import school teachers from India to teach in Cleveland Public Schools. They could not find enough teachers in America to fill their vacancies despite the fact that we have one of the highest paid teacher salaries in the State, something like an average of $56 Thousand per year.

Reply
 
 
Jan 7, 2019 15:46:25   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
Shouldn't you be at the border picking up another Prius load of i******s...

I am sure you could provide us with some great unbiased reading materials...well we are waiting...

That guy is not worth listening to. He just needles Conservative writers and never really offers much in the way of discussion. He wouldn't even clarify the comment he aimed at me when I asked him to.

Reply
Jan 7, 2019 15:46:53   #
thom w Loc: San Jose, CA
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
Shouldn't you be at the border picking up another Prius load of i******s...

I am sure you could provide us with some great unbiased reading materials...well we are waiting...


Just the fact that I was pushing them at you might ad bias. I’m not trying to get you to see the world through my eyes. I do think exposing yourself to more than one point of view wouldn’t hurt you any. If you want to trade insults there are others here who enjoy that more than I do.

Reply
Jan 7, 2019 16:06:44   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
Steven Seward wrote:
I'm not criticizing your post, because you brought of a number of good points, but I want to make a comment about losing jobs to other countries.

There is a big misconception that the U.S. is losing jobs. This is not actually the case. Jobs are changing at a rapid pace and it gives the impression that we are losing them because when workers lose their jobs, it makes big headlines. What does not make the headlines are all the new jobs that open up in their place.

A little known fact is that for some five or six years we have had a record number of unfilled jobs, about 5 or 6 million. Employers cannot find enough people to show up for work. This is due squarely on the fact that there are so many people on welfare who don't care to go out and work. We are at a low point of the percentage of people working, but at a high point for people on welfare. One out of three Americans is getting some sort of welfare at the moment. This is abominable, though it has been getting better recently.
I'm not criticizing your post, because you brought... (show quote)

Most of the new jobs after losing your old one is lower paying

Reply
Jan 7, 2019 16:10:37   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
LWW wrote:
In your mind the national/world economies are essentially static ... which is a myth.

When country A tariffs an item at 5% and country B tariffs it at 25%, country B will flourish and country A will suffer.

This is what has happened to the USA, its economy and its workforce.

What Trump has actually presented is a tariff free trade agreement with several nations, but steadfastly refusing to allow imbalanced tariffs to continue.

Does the end buyer pay for the tariffs? Of course they do, and I'm glad to see my l*****t friends finally accepting that taxes are not paid by the corporations. Its paid by the end purchaser.

How does the economy benefit from tariffs? It tilts the playing field back to level and the economy benefits because more of the product becomes available from domestic suppliers and the foreign trade deficit recedes because less is imported.

In a tariff free economy the most efficient country will thrive and the least efficient will suffer.
In your mind the national/world economies are esse... (show quote)

I don't agree with your assessment that one country benefits from the tariff and another does not. They both suffer. The only ones that benefit are the tiny workforce in the industry whose competitors have been shut out by the tariffs. Everybody else in that same country suffers because they now have to pay higher prices to companies that are not as efficient as the foreign companies that were shut out.

It is already happening months after we imposed the recent tariffs on Chinese steel. Many household appliances like washing machines, driers and refrigerators have jumped significantly in price. New cars are expected to follow suit.

Reply
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