Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.

47greyfox Loc: on the edge of the Colorado front range

I go straight to the digest via an email link every morning. Yes, there are posts that I think are a little self serving and maybe, long winded. And... in many cases, a simple search would have answered their question. Yes, there are a number of thread entries that aren't necessary if the poster had simply read other replies. Yes, there is a little trolling and a little wandering (okay, hijacking) from the OP's original query or point. If any of those things annoy me, I simply move on. I also don't pretend to tell you I read every topic or look at very many of the gallery images. But, there are a number of people who habitually reply that I never not read and they are what keeps me coming back. Also, the diversity of the posters and the abundance of topic headings make the sometimes hour plus I spend well worthwhile. To the OP who started this topic, you have the ability and opportunity to ignore what offends you. Since the dawn of the internet, particularly forums, it's way too easy for some to hide behind their keyboard and get a little snarky. They aren't going away. The whole is definitely more valuable that an occasional bad part. Oh, lastly, the Attic has been the source of some really funny stuff (the political crap notwithstanding). I'll be back tomorrow morning wondering when "jerryc41" will hit 150,000 posts. Happy Thanksgiving!!

al13

Well done, I knew someone would catch it. And done with appropriately.

al13

Well done

Selene03

In general, I completely agree with you. On the other hand, there are a few people on here who are terrific photographers who I can learn a lot from. I skip over almost everything except for what they write. I have also had some terrific conversation about things with some members. I ignore the rest. I think this is true of most Internet forums, though this one seems to get nastier than most. It's too bad because the forum serves a useful purpose.

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

Growing up, we had a rule in our house: When you buy something, or when you want to use a new tool for the first time, you can't — until you Read The *Fine* Manual. That was why my parents had many tools and appliances they bought in the 1950s that they never had to replace. They used and maintained them properly, according to the manuals.

When I was loaned a Canon SLR in 1968, the friend who loaned it said, "Here's the manual. Your Dad says to read it all. Then you can take the camera out of the house and try it." I did... it worked as described.

I was absolutely HOOKED on reading manuals from that point forward. Because that Canon FX manual SUCKED, I vowed to write and photo-illustrate good ones!

When I was a trainer, I always told my trainees, "I can't teach you everything you need to know in class. So my best advice is to read the training manuals that I wrote just for you, then watch my step-by-step videos."

Many topics newbies ask about here are covered in camera or accessory manuals. Yet the first complaint I get is that, "I don't have time." Second is, "I can't understand the horrible JEnglish translation." Third is, "I threw it away." Fourth is, "I don't know what I need to know, or where to find it in there." Fifth is, "It just tells me what the functions are, without explaining WHY or WHEN I might want to use them." Well, you need to know ALL of it, or at least know what all is in there when you DO need it. Dig in! And yes, buy a supplementary book on photography or take classes to get started.

Quite often, folks post a question here, and you can just tell from what they're asking, and the *context* in which they ask it, that it clearly is the WRONG question.

Other times, the question they're asking can't be answered until they ask the question that should precede it, and get that answer!

The dilemma is always, "How do I answer this WITHOUT encountering some jerk on the sidelines who tells me it's rude not to answer the original poster's question?

It's sort of like being a sales person when someone wants to give you money for something they obviously don't need, and can't possibly use to solve their problem without making it much worse. You have to lead them away from their ignorance by asking the right questions, and gently redirect them to what works... because if you just take their money, they probably won't buy from you again. If you act as a trusted adviser, maybe they become a client for life!

robertjerl Loc: Corona, California

Well, that would be the ideal world. But that doesn't exist and probably never will.
Sometimes it is better, sometimes it is worse. And the current trend is worse is almost all aspects of life. Look at politics, many can't just disagree, they have to hate and make the other guy evil, stupid etc. The internet contributes in a big way, you don't have to sit down across the table from the other guy with a group at the local diner having breakfast, coffee etc. and either get along or be isolated.
In a way we are all isolated in front of a computer and are losing our social skills for group interactions.

You can either learn to live with it or leave as you have said you might. But I doubt you will find a better place and may end up one of those isolated lonely people. I learned to work with just about anyone in the Army in Vietnam. Love him, hate him, think he is the stupidest rock on the planet but you had to work together. Your lives often depended on each other.

It goes over to real life and "face-to-face". Our Photo Club at the Senior Citizens Center has been hit by it. The lady who coordinated the club for years got tired of it and sent out e-mails for someone to take over- Twice. I am the only one who answered her and I said "if no one else..." because I was the New Guy. She turned it over to me. A few days later at the monthly meeting one guy got upset about me and my ideas for new things to try (it had been a "show and tell") like classes in various photo subjects, featured people or themes and made a couple of snarky remarks. I wasn't feeling real tolerant and made a comment on the order of "Everyone had two chances to volunteer and take over. I am the only one who answered so I am it for now. Change it if the group desires to have someone else." He got up and walked out while I was turned to answer a question from someone else. And by the next month he had gotten several of his friends to not show up. We went from about 20 members with 10-15 or more at each meeting down to about 6 active members who show at meetings on a regular basis. Due to health, planned trips etc it looks like we won't even have a Nov and Dec meeting. Due to health etc (it is a Senior Citizens Center Club) we have trouble getting together for meetings with so few active. I started a Face Book page for the group and opened it to anyone. It is slowly picking up but most of the pictures posted are mine. I MISS THAT CLUB! But I will keep trying. Some of the active members are friends with the ones not showing and in a book club with them. They say several of them state they plan to start coming back but then the guy who walked out starts in on them and they don't show up.

Photocraig

I couldn't agree more. But, considering that the White House Correspondents can't manage themselves, let's give us some slack. I never appreciated the little scrolling wheel on my mouse more that when I open a thread or when I scan threads. Most of the trolls and impolite posters are consistent and are easily avoided--or obvious if you're in the mood to be amused.

Like any other forum, it is easy to jump away from a troll. SKIP THEM. They won't go away, but so what. You are in control. When a thread turns bad, EXIT. You're better than that.
C

digit-up Loc: Flushing, Michigan

I find it off-putting when people raze cane over
a miss-spelled word, or worse yet, someone that COMPLAINS that”that subject has been dealt with BEFORE and answered a hundred times. COME ON,JUST ANSWER IT FOR THE NEW GUY, don’t ridicule him/her. Too many just don’t want to play nice, they would rather present themselves as “BIGDEALS. Sad, isn’t it??

artBob Loc: Near Chicago

I see both the helpful and the spiteful. Being a democracy, I can pick and choose, so I do not share JimBart's complaint.

digit-up Loc: Flushing, Michigan

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

It's a matter of COPING SKILLS.

My advice to the OP:

You have to make a decision based on your analysis, observations, values and your own personality. You have to assess the situation and decide if this forum, or any othere similar forum or online activity, is of sufficient benefit to you or others, for you to hang in here and spend you time, exert your effort and apply your patience in order to contribute and participate effectively.

Some will suggest that you "Shape up or ship out". Others will tell you to "Develop a thick skin". There is always the school of thought that espouses the philosophy that "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen" or "If you can't take a punch, stay out of the ring" . Perhaps theses are old hackneyed adages but there is some wisdom in them if you value the preservation of your mental health and dislike confrontation.

I agree that there is no legitimate place for all the vitriolic behaviour that transpires around here but, unfortunately enough, this has become part and parcel on many forms of social media and is at a level that is nearly impossible to police unless it progresses to criminal activity. The good news, however, is that percentage wise, most of the folks on this forum are nice, helpful and knowledgeable people and again anither old adage about a "few bad apples..."!

So...my coping method is simple, I try to share my knowledge, contribute as much as I can, learn from others. I do complain ever now and again but I find it more effective, positive, constructive and fun to set an example rather than preach too much or wade in to the verbal combat. I have, on occasion, made it clear that I won't put up with trolling or bullying and happily, most of "my" trolls, distractors and would-be bullies, have gone elsewhere. I continue to enjoy communicating with the nice folks. At the end of the day, ACTIONS do speak louder than words alone.

I don't believe that much of the grumpiness and rude behavior is a result of ageing, rather it is that some folks never grew up! I also don't believe that kindness, civility and decorum are dead (yet). Perhaps, in certin circles, theses attributes are just "comatose" but will soon be revived.

As for that "vulnerability" thread, true enough, there was quite a bit of talk about weaponry and self defense. I certainly don't believe in violence and excessive force but there are times where preventative and defensive tactics do have their place. If folks don't stand up to the real "bad guys" there will be no safety. Likewise- we all have right to protest and complain when we feel disrespected or witness abusive behavior.

So...If you decide to stay, post images, ask questions, give advice, check out the specialized sections that address your areas of interest and keep on truckin' and do speak you mind! There is nothing wrong with good clean debate- many of areas of photography are certainly debatable. If you disagree with anyone's advice or information, simply state you case and leave it to others to judge and seek the truth. When the trolls resort to name-calling and cussing, the are not only insulting their "adversaries" they are also insulting the intelligence of everyone who is reading on.

If you decide to leave, go in peace and good health and happy trails! I hope you decide to stay!

joer Loc: Colorado/Illinois

UHH is what it is. If you want serious help with photography and not put up with the BS google YouTube. You can find just about anything you want. You will learn more in a week that a life time here. This is entertainment.

digit-up Loc: Flushing, Michigan

I can't IGNORE your comment, without telling you I'm ignoring your opinion/comment. Certainly, you have a "RIGHT TO BE WRONG" LOL

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

While photography can be done in isolation, our presence and participation on this site indicate that for each of us, we do not desire to take that approach. As we get older, a truth of life is that friends and relatives die or move away, families get distracted and don't have as much time for us, and as a result, we have less opportunity for interaction with other adults. And conversation by its nature is two-way communication. If we just want to expound our knowledge or show our photographs to others, we could just each set up a website and call life good. So we have conversations here. I like them. And it does not bother me a bit that the subject sometimes shifts a bit (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot) as the conversation progresses. That's how they work.

I don't know how old we are as a group, but based on comments that some have made and information that others have shared, my guess is that there are a lot more of us that are 70 or 80 than there are that are 40 or 50. I'll tell you that I will be 68 as of the day after tomorrow, which probably puts me in the younger half of this group, and I already fairly regularly receive notice that another member of my high school graduating class has died. For most of us, we are at the point that our community is getting smaller, not larger.

Some have said that as we get older, we get crankier and more opinionated. Others have said that they don't believe that's true...they say that maybe it's just that folks just haven't ever grown up. My belief is that either case is a rather weak excuse for treating other people badly, whether those people are sitting across the table from us or whether they are sitting at the other end of a long pair of wires.

My dad is 92. He has gotten so opinionated and bossy that he has run off all of the people in his small town who would be willing to mow his grass for him. My father in law is 90. He has gotten so cranky that all of his old friends refuse to come to visit him and so opinionated that his grandkids refuse to bring their kids to visit for fear that they will learn and repeat something from him that would get them in trouble at school. Getting cranky and opinionated is over rated.

So yes...let's share what we know. Let's answer questions...even if it seems to be the same ones over and over. (Many of the crankiest and most opinionated of us fuss all the time about hard it is to find answers using the site's search feature...and most of the best and most interesting questioners don't know yet that informative subject lines are important.) It's most likely the first time for the questioner.

By the way, I don't require that you agree with me, and I don't know you well enough to commit to always agreeing with you. (We used to say at work that if we all agreed on everything that some number of us weren't needed.) But I will commit to not being ugly to you. And I expect the same from you.

Let's work to elevate the tone so that folks won't be prompted to think about leaving us. We are part of a shrinking profession, hobby, and discipline. Let's don't accelerate the shrinkage.