Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Performance Difference between APS-C and Full frame digital cameras
Page <<first <prev 5 of 6 next>
Jul 9, 2018 17:11:24   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
selmslie wrote:
So everyone is out of step but you.

Didn’t you read my latest thread? Or did it go over your head?

What happens when you magnify an APS-C image 12x to make an 8x12 print? You get fewer lp/mm than with an FX image that only needs 8x magnification.

You get larger pixels (or more depending on what is done), but the resolving power for fine detail is not changed unless the image is resampled.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 19:05:26   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
burkphoto wrote:
The same can be said of the Lumix G9.

The only caveat of the m4/3 high res modes is that nothing in the scene can move. It’s great for still life work.


Right, g9, EM5 mark2, PenF.

The EM1 mark2 can fix light movement, but I’m not sure if the g9 has that type of processing included.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 19:28:28   #
Screamin Scott Loc: Marshfield Wi, Baltimore Md, now Dallas Ga
 
You don't get longer focal lengths nor more magnification. All you get is the field of view that a longer focal length would show.
Bob Locher wrote:
But I can - and do - use some of the same lenses as the full frame cameras do. The Sigma 30 mm f1.4 or the Sony 85mm f1.8 are some of the highest rated lenses on DXO, and used on the APS-C camera they are equivalent of 45 mm and 137 mm lenses.

As to having to blow up a half frame image with the same pixel count as the full frame image, I honestly do not believe it is as simple as saying it requires twice the magnification to achieve the same result. But I lack the math and physics and understanding to convincingly argue that.

I am hoping someone here does...
But I can - and do - use some of the same lenses a... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Jul 9, 2018 19:29:28   #
Clapperboard
 
Gene51 "And Scotty is also correct - the smaller sensor must be magnified by a factor of 1.5X to get to the same output size" is absolutely wrong. A subject on a crop sensor is the same size as the same subject on a full frame sensor when the same lens is used. It could be possible the crop effect would result in a lack of coverage.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 19:30:30   #
Clapperboard
 
Gene51 "And Scotty is also correct - the smaller sensor must be magnified by a factor of 1.5X to get to the same output size" is absolutely wrong. A subject on a crop sensor is the same size as the same subject on a full frame sensor when the same lens is used. It could be possible the crop effect would result in a lack of coverage.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 19:34:21   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Apaflo wrote:
You get larger pixels (or more depending on what is done), but the resolving power for fine detail is not changed unless the image is resampled.

That's not all that happens.

When you start with 46.42 lp/mm as the system resolution for a 16x24mm DX sensor and you enlarge it 12x to make an 8x12 inch print, you end up with 3.87 lp/mm in the print.

Do the same thing with a 42.87 lp/mm as the system resolution for a 24x36mm FX sensor and you enlarge it 8x to make an 8x12 inch print, you end up with 5.36 lp/mm in the print.

The FX print ends up with more lp/mm than the DX by a clear margin.

I guess you don't understand how magnification affects lp/mm.

Keep reading Performance Difference between APS-C and Full frame digital cameras - Resolution until you finally figure out what the rest of us already know - that when it come to formats, size matters.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 19:37:07   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Clapperboard wrote:
Gene51 "And Scotty is also correct - the smaller sensor must be magnified by a factor of 1.5X to get to the same output size" is absolutely wrong. A subject on a crop sensor is the same size as the same subject on a full frame sensor when the same lens is used. It could be possible the crop effect would result in a lack of coverage.

You also need to study Performance Difference between APS-C and Full frame digital cameras - Resolution. You will learn what the rest of us already know - that when it come to formats, size matters.

Reply
 
 
Jul 9, 2018 20:15:50   #
Dennis833 Loc: Australia
 
You will see very little difference. My answer is based on personal experience shooting with both formats. I shoot only landscape images with a Sony A7R and A6000. Most of my images are shot using a tripod at base ISO. If I upsize the APS-C images to FF the larger images are only slightly better. If I down size the FF to match the APS-C the smaller images are just as good if not sharper. DXO states that there is a difference in dynamic range between the two but I have not seen this difference shooting real images. So if you don't print larger than 16x24" there are many advantages shooting with the APS-C format over FF.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 20:23:50   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
Dennis833 wrote:
You will see very little difference. My answer is based on personal experience shooting with both formats. I shoot only landscape images with a Sony A7R and A6000. Most of my images are shot using a tripod at base ISO. If I upsize the APS-C images to FF the larger images are only slightly better. If I down size the FF to match the APS-C the smaller images are just as good if not sharper. DXO states that there is a difference in dynamic range between the two but I have not seen this difference shooting real images. So if you don't print larger than 16x24" there are many advantages shooting with the APS-C format over FF.
You will see very little difference. My answer is ... (show quote)


As a practical matter, these are my feelings also - despite all the theories and numbers to the contrary!

..

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 20:45:42   #
jaimeblackwell Loc: Lewiston, Maine
 
well I recently went from a Nikon D7200 to a Nikon D750. I only swapped bodies. I was using FX lenses on the 7200 as I knew I would one day want to upgrade. That said I found a notable improvement in picture Quality and low light effectiveness with the D750 over the D7200. Pictures are sharper using the same lenses. the 7200 was no slouch dont get me wrong. I am Pulling off better shots that I could now quite get right before the upgrade. I feel that using the fx lenses on a dx camera has it good and sour points. You get more distance from the crop sensor but you loose light and information from the fact that your really only looking out of the center of the lens. this in itself causes a loss of information that was not designed to be left out when the lens was designed. Hope that help you or anyone else who is in this position.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 20:59:30   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
imagemeister wrote:
As a practical matter, these are my feelings also - despite all the theories and numbers to the contrary!

..

Actually the real "theories and numbers" support exactly what he said! We don't see the real part often on forums such as this, where relatively most people are not all that aware and repeat whatever they have heard.

If you want to print large, or crop extensively, or shoot action in low light... spent money on a full frame body. If you want fine detail, can always work in good light, and never print larger than 16x20... spend money on a crop format.

Of course the nitty gritty details are subject to endless nonsense arguments claiming otherwise!

Reply
 
 
Jul 9, 2018 21:32:51   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
jaimeblackwell wrote:
... I found a notable improvement in picture Quality and low light effectiveness with the D750 over the D7200. Pictures are sharper using the same lenses. ...

Sometimes hands-on experience is more convincing than theoretical analysis.

We can go to great lengths to prove that full frame produces sharper images than crop sensors for the same lens and MP. But there will always be skeptics you refuse to concede a fallacious belief.

Someone who can't take a decent image in the first place is unlikely to accept the truth either way when it is staring them in the face.

Reply
Jul 10, 2018 00:32:36   #
10MPlayer Loc: California
 
rmorrison1116 wrote:
Digital camera sensors convert light to electronic signals. The signals are then processed, amplified and converted to binary data. The image is constructed from said data. If two cameras have the same pixel count but one is full frame and one is crop frame, here's the difference. The pixels, the photo sensitive diodes that gather the light, on the full frame are larger than on the crop frame sensor. The larger the pixel, the more light it can gather and convert into a electrical signal. The stronger the signal, the less amplification needed when converting the signal into binary data. Lowering the amount of signal amplification needed, lowers the amount of electronic noise associated with the amplification, thus less noise converted into the binary data.
Another advantage of the larger sensor is the spacing between each pixel. The closer together the more susceptible the pixels are to heat generated noise. Since the full frame pixels are farther apart, less heat related noise.

The newer generation of digital cameras possess very powerful processors. These high speed processors are capable of detecting and differentiating between actual image data and a good bit of the noise data and filtering it out. That's why you can get pretty darn good images at ISO 16000 when in the past the usable ceiling was ISO 1600.

Better diodes in the pixels and better processors converting the signals to data; none of it amounts to a hill of beans if the glass put in front of the sensor is incapable of getting the details in the light to the sensor.

Today's crop cameras with their high end sensors and super fast processors are capable of producing images almost as good as a full frame but they still can't match the larger pixels light gathering ability, that's just simple physics.
Digital camera sensors convert light to electronic... (show quote)


A very concise explanation. Thanks rmorrisson1116. I've been unclear on why larger pixels on a FF sensor are better than the smaller ones on a APS-C sensor. You cleared it up for me.

Reply
Jul 10, 2018 02:34:46   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
tdekany wrote:
The exception would be m4/3 cameras with the hi res feature. When applicable, for landscape in your example, the em1 mark2’s 80mp file beats all full frame cameras for dynamic range for example according to http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR_HighResShotMode.htm


All good as long as you shoot from a tripod and nothing in the frame is moving.

Reply
Jul 10, 2018 02:54:30   #
JimH123 Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
 
Bob Locher wrote:
First, please, I am NOT trying to start a flame war here. This is an honest inquiry.

I use an APS-C cmaera, a Sony A-6000 camera, which incorporates a sensor that is 23.50mm x 15.60mm in size, and with 24.3 megapixels. I own three prime lens that are pixel limited in resolution.

Full Frame cameras typically use a sensor that is 24 X36 mm. Recent models offer anywhere from about 24 megapixels to about 50 megapixels at the high end.

My question is this - is there any significant performance difference between a camera using an APS-C 24 megapixel sensor, and a full frame camera using 24 megapixel sensor?

Perceived advantage of the APS-C camera:
1) Smaller, and lighter
2) Cheaper
3) Lenses for a given angular field of view are shorter in focal length - .667 X. Lens are lighter and cheaper for a desired aperture.
4) Zoom lenses designed to cover the smaller sensor are lighter, cheaper and usually sharper.

As the old Greek philosopher said, “There ain’t no free lunch.” I do understand there is a modest improvement in low light performance using the larger sensor. But then I do mostly scenics so that advantage is of little value to me. Smaller, lighter and cheaper do mean something to me. What are the advantages to using cameras with the full frame format?

Bob Locher
First, please, I am NOT trying to start a flame wa... (show quote)


I have all three sizes -- FF, APS and m4/3. And also even smaller with the Canon SX50 bridge camera. Under good lighting conditions, they all look good. And you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between FF and APS-C. As the lighting gets poor, the FF is noticeably better. I also can get really good results with the m4/3's in good light and they look really good too.


As for noise, DxO Photolab Prime in the Elite version takes care of most noise problems.

Reply
Page <<first <prev 5 of 6 next>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.