Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Performance Difference between APS-C and Full frame digital cameras
Page <<first <prev 4 of 6 next> last>>
Jul 9, 2018 12:35:13   #
ELNikkor
 
Having grown up with 35mm film, I had a lot of Nikon lenses, which became "obsolete" when autofocus/VR became competent. I had distain for the "rinky-dink, amateur" APS-C format, until I saw the quality of blow-ups and wedding photos done by so many pros with them. Since it took forever for the camera companies to make a reasonably priced FF camera, I shot the APS-C format for 10 years until finally found a good deal on the D750 with lens & battery pack last month. Now, I have a camera that: can use the full image area of all of my film lenses, can use all my DX lenses, can shoot up to 24mp, or down to 500kb (I actually do a lot of shooting at this resolution!) It has a built-in flash, articulating screen, and isn't so big and heavy. Versatility, dynamic range, low noise, and price are why I bought the D750. Though DX and smaller formats are very good, and those cameras are excellent, one thing those DX cameras will never be able to do is give me a full 24mm x 36mm photo with 1 click.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 12:56:00   #
snapshot18
 
Bob Locher :

Bob,
To answer your question honestly: Yes & No. (a) Any larger sensor, all else equal, will give higher resolution. (b) All else equal, the more pixels in a given sensor, will give higher resolution. Problem: All is not EVER equal. First, it is NOT just the number of pixels (achieved via utilizing smaller pixel for a greater number in a smaller sensor, or using same sized pixels in a larger sensor. It is the quality and type and size of the pixels themselves. My choice of cameras is the professional (old) Fuji S5 Pro which went a totally different direction by incorporating 6.1 small pixels to better capture highlights plus 6.1 large pixels to better capture shadows. Results is a camera that can create an HD image in ONE exposure where Canon & Nikon users have to take at least two (one under exposed and one over exposed - plus one right on for best results). Then Fuji created an interpolating system to increase the resolution resulting from having only 12.2 Mp caused by using the non-full frame sensor (I guess to keep cost lower)- giving an all around superior image even tho' it has the smaller sensor. When the Fuji first came out it was touted by both reviewers and professionals as capturing the best color (aka 'skin tones) of any DSLR available. But, that is just my take on the issue.
YOU SPEND YOUR MONEY; YOU MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICE. (my choice isn't even made anymore)

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 12:56:17   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
burkphoto wrote:
But... for LANDSCAPES, a full-frame or even a medium-format system would be much better than m4/3 or APS-C, especially if you make large prints (30x20 or 60x40 inches). Even though the “standard” viewing distance for any print is 1x to 1.5x its diagonal dimension, more pixels and more details allow closer inspection. Joe Public probably won’t notice, or care. But the format nazis at your local camera club probably will!


The exception would be m4/3 cameras with the hi res feature. When applicable, for landscape in your example, the em1 mark2’s 80mp file beats all full frame cameras for dynamic range for example according to http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR_HighResShotMode.htm

Reply
 
 
Jul 9, 2018 13:02:04   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
MT Shooter wrote:
You will get the APS-C fans claiming their cameras are as good as FF cameras.
You will get the FF purists who claim the APS-C cameras are toys.
And then you'll always have the M4/3's fans who claim their tiny sensors are better than either of the bigger brothers.
Truth is, FF is definitely the king of resolution, but many do not NEED that much resolution so smaller sensors will fill their needs just fine. And at a lower cost for the camera and crop sensor sized lenses.
The only thing that matter is what does the job for YOU!
You will get the APS-C fans claiming their cameras... (show quote)


I am not sure what universe you live in to claim that m4/3 owners think that m4/3 sensors are better than FF or apsc.

And on a side note, even though I have never used one, I’m pretty sure that MEDIUM FORMAT cameras like the one from Fuji or Hasselblad outresolve your Nikon FF CAMERAS.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 13:11:08   #
IDguy Loc: Idaho
 
rmorrison1116 wrote:
Digital camera sensors convert light to electronic signals. The signals are then processed, amplified and converted to binary data. The image is constructed from said data. If two cameras have the same pixel count but one is full frame and one is crop frame, here's the difference. The pixels, the photo sensitive diodes that gather the light, on the full frame are larger than on the crop frame sensor. The larger the pixel, the more light it can gather and convert into a electrical signal. The stronger the signal, the less amplification needed when converting the signal into binary data. Lowering the amount of signal amplification needed, lowers the amount of electronic noise associated with the amplification, thus less noise converted into the binary data.
Another advantage of the larger sensor is the spacing between each pixel. The closer together the more susceptible the pixels are to heat generated noise. Since the full frame pixels are farther apart, less heat related noise.

The newer generation of digital cameras possess very powerful processors. These high speed processors are capable of detecting and differentiating between actual image data and a good bit of the noise data and filtering it out. That's why you can get pretty darn good images at ISO 16000 when in the past the usable ceiling was ISO 1600.

Better diodes in the pixels and better processors converting the signals to data; none of it amounts to a hill of beans if the glass put in front of the sensor is incapable of getting the details in the light to the sensor.

Today's crop cameras with their high end sensors and super fast processors are capable of producing images almost as good as a full frame but they still can't match the larger pixels light gathering ability, that's just simple physics.
Digital camera sensors convert light to electronic... (show quote)


Pixel size in the 46 MB D850 is about the same as in Nikon’s 20 and 24 MP APS-C camera’s.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 13:48:29   #
PHRubin Loc: Nashville TN USA
 
You "advantages" are only partially correct.

Lenses for APS-C for a given angle of view are only cheaper when looking at teles. The cheapest lenses are about 50mm. Anything higher OR LOWER are more expensive. Since you seem to go for landscapes, I expect that for you a particular desired angle of view (below that of a 50mm) is more expensive than for FF.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 14:22:45   #
IDguy Loc: Idaho
 
PHRubin wrote:
You "advantages" are only partially correct.

Lenses for APS-C for a given angle of view are only cheaper when looking at teles. The cheapest lenses are about 50mm. Anything higher OR LOWER are more expensive. Since you seem to go for landscapes, I expect that for you a particular desired angle of view (below that of a 50mm) is more expensive than for FF.


The new Nikon AFP 10-20, amd its competitors, are priced much less than the 16-35 I have for my FX Nikon.

Yes, they do cost more than the 35 or 50 mm primes.

Reply
 
 
Jul 9, 2018 14:37:05   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
tdekany wrote:
... And on a side note, even though I have never used one, I’m pretty sure that MEDIUM FORMAT cameras like the one from Fuji or Hasselblad outresolve your Nikon FF CAMERAS.

And I believe that Hasselblad H4D-200MS combines six 50 MP images into a single 600 MP image using pixel shifting and other magic.

The downside is that you need a stationary subject because it requires multiple exposures. Not to mention, deep pockets at $45,000 for just the body.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 14:57:04   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
selmslie wrote:
And I believe that Hasselblad H4D-200MS combines six 50 MP images into a single 600 MP image using pixel shifting and other magic.

The downside is that you need a stationary subject because it requires multiple exposures. Not to mention, deep pockets at $45,000 for just the body.


Even my em5 mark2 produces pretty good files at 64MPs.


https://www.hasselblad.com/press/press-releases/hasselblad-introduces-the-h6d-400c-ms/

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 15:19:09   #
Kencamera
 
Here are a couple of interesting articles by Roger N. Clark where he compares the low-light performance of a FF DLSR and an APS-C camera. Specifically he compares the 5D Mark III to the 7D Mark II. Both have similar size pixel counts. Essentially, he says the state-of-the-art is such that he would select the APS-C camera (7D mark II) over the full-frame camera. This is contrary to the conventional wisdom you hear on this web-site, but I think you will find he analysis credible. www. clarkvision.com/articles/does.pixel.size.matter/#Conclusions and www.clarkvision.com/reviews/evaluation-canon-7dii/index.html.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 15:30:22   #
cjc2 Loc: Hellertown PA
 
Kencamera wrote:
Here are a couple of interesting articles by Roger N. Clark where he compares the low-light performance of a FF DLSR and an APS-C camera. Specifically he compares the 5D Mark III to the 7D Mark II. Both have similar size pixel counts. Essentially, he says the state-of-the-art is such that he would select the APS-C camera (7D mark II) over the full-frame camera. This is contrary to the conventional wisdom you hear on this web-site, but I think you will find he analysis credible. www. clarkvision.com/articles/does.pixel.size.matter/#Conclusions and www.clarkvision.com/reviews/evaluation-canon-7dii/index.html.
Here are a couple of interesting articles by Roger... (show quote)


The only analysis I find credible is the results that I have seen for myself, under 'Real World' shooting conditions (Football under the lights). My own shots, from the same football game, under the same conditions and settings, prove, at least to me, that I'll take the image made with the FF camera every time. All the 'so called expert' opinion, mostly from people who don't shoot under the conditions I shoot under, means a lot less to me than my results. My clients prefer results to opinions or expert advice! Best of luck!

Reply
 
 
Jul 9, 2018 16:19:27   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
robertjerl wrote:
... the APS-C because of its smaller pixels can show more detail and look sharper. That goes for macro also.
If you fill the frame and don't do much cropping the FF will do better making large prints. ...

Robert's article is correct on every point! Extremely well done.

Everyone else has been wrong about resolution and sharpness, claiming FF is better than APS-C, which is not true.

First, pixel count is NOT a measure of resolution even though that is often refered to as "resolution". Standards organizations say the pixel dimension of an image should not be called resolution. High MP counts make printing large prints easier but there is not finer detail on the image! Just a wider field of view with more and larger pixels.

The total number of pixels on a 6000x4000 24 MP crop sensor is the same as for a 24 MP full frame sensor... but the crop sensor has shorter physical dimensions and a narrower field of view. The larger sensor has larger pixels and fewer of them per millimeter of physical size.

A 6000x4000 pixel sensor that is typically 15.7mm on the vertical axis has 4000/15.7/2 = 127 line pairs per mm. That is a very fine pixel pitch.

A 4000 pixel sensor that physically measures 23.9mm on the vertical side has 4000/23.9/2 = 33 line pairs per millimeter. Good but not as fine as the pixel pitch of an APS-C sensor of the same dimensions.

The APS-C sensor can resolve finer detail because it has higher spatial resolution. Spatial resolution measures fineness of detail while pixel resolution measure how large a print can be made; two very different though equally important qualities depending on your needs.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 16:29:43   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
IDguy wrote:
Pixel size in the 46 MB D850 is about the same as in Nikon’s 20 and 24 MP APS-C camera’s.

Pixel size on the D850 is 4.34 microns, at 21 MP the D500 has 4.20 micron pixels, and a D7200 with 24.2 MP has 3.89 micron pixels.

Those are significant differences. The D850 has a spatial resolution of 115.20 lp/mm while the D7200 has 128.53 lp/mm.

That is a very important difference if you shoot with enough light and want the highest resolution of fine detail possible.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 16:47:25   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Apaflo wrote:
... Everyone else has been wrong about resolution and sharpness, claiming FF is better than APS-C, which is not true. ...

So everyone is out of step but you.

Didn’t you read my latest thread? Or did it go over your head?

What happens when you magnify an APS-C image 12x to make an 8x12 print? You get fewer lp/mm than with an FX image that only needs 8x magnification.

Reply
Jul 9, 2018 17:07:16   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
tdekany wrote:
The exception would be m4/3 cameras with the hi res feature. When applicable, for landscape in your example, the em1 mark2’s 80mp file beats all full frame cameras for dynamic range for example according to http://www.net/Charts/PDR_HighResShotMode.htm


The same can be said of the Lumix G9.

The only caveat of the m4/3 high res modes is that nothing in the scene can move. It’s great for still life work.

Reply
Page <<first <prev 4 of 6 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.