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Jun 7, 2013 10:05:24   #
Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA
 
Mary Clark, I started this thread because I wanted people to think about the policy and I wanted to see general reactions of participants. Please let's not get off about "illegal aliens" and Obama. Let's try to stick to the subject.


Mary clark wrote:
how about spying on all those aliens he lets across the borders? You know the ones that come here and kill us! The ones Obama sends all that money to

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Jun 7, 2013 10:06:50   #
Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA
 
Thanks for the reference. It adds another important dimension to the discussion.


2much2carry wrote:
Hello Richard,
Electronic-ease-dropping has taken place for over a decade, but over the last 7 years or so, supercomputers have been deployed software that will collect and correlate the sender's name, location of call, any criminal data, or directed watch directives, facial data, voice print, actual call routing, AND the same for the receiver of the call or message. It will correlate much of this info based on freq. of contacts or locations of either. They will do predictive analysis for movements. Field commanders and CIA/FBI agents have access to the predictive elements and other information. Messages are read by supercomputers and interpreted based on the subjects metadata. Such analyses have resulted in many terrorist interceptions.

If you are interested in this subject, I highly recommend reading "Counterstrike" by Schmidt and others.

--Tim
Hello Richard, br Electronic-ease-dropping has tak... (show quote)

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Jun 7, 2013 10:07:56   #
Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA
 
So what do we as citizens do about this situation ? Suggestions, anyone ?


ggttc wrote:
Fourth Amendment

The Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution protects citizens from unreasonable searches and seizures. The Fourth Amendment states, “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

The purpose of the Fourth Amendment is to uphold the privacy and security of individual persons against subjective invasions by the government and its officials. When the government violates an individual’s “expectation of privacy”, then an unlawful search has occurred. An individual’s “expectation of privacy” can be defined as whether the individual expects their actions will be free from government intrusion.

The Fourth Amendment requires that searches meet a “reasonableness standard.” Reasonableness can weighted on the circumstances surrounding the search and by measuring the search’s overall intrusive nature against the legitimate interests of the government. A search will be unreasonable any time the government cannot prove that it was necessary. The government must show that there was “probable cause” for a search to be deemed “Constitutional”.
Fourth Amendment br br The Fourth Amendment of th... (show quote)

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Jun 7, 2013 10:12:45   #
RMM Loc: Suburban New York
 
Richard94611 wrote:
I don't think it correct to state that both Democrats and Republicans like this spying on phone calls. There may be some who like it, but there are a lot in each party who don't.

And yet, it's being done. And has been for who knows how long? So it would appear that not enough Democrats and Republicans are aroused, at least, not in Congress.

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Jun 7, 2013 10:16:28   #
Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA
 
So the only solution might be to arouse more of them. Phone calls, letters, emails.


RMM wrote:
And yet, it's being done. And has been for who knows how long? So it would appear that not enough Democrats and Republicans are aroused, at least, not in Congress.

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Jun 7, 2013 10:21:55   #
WaltG Loc: Las Vegas NV
 
I really have no problem with the government collecting phone info in its efforts to curb terrorism. I have done nothing illegal or shameful ... at least with my phone. I also have no problem with background checks for firearms purchases. What bothers me is that I, for one, can no longer trust what our government will ultimately do with that information.

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Jun 7, 2013 10:29:37   #
Pepper Loc: Planet Earth Country USA
 
Richard94611 wrote:
So the only solution might be to arouse more of them. Phone calls, letters, emails.


Yeah cause that always works. All I ever get is a form letter thanking me for my concern, hell they probably don't even know what my concern was. I have absolutely ZERO confidence in our government and even less respect for my representatives. It's a job that pays them well and that's all it is any notion that their goal is to serve the people it just that a notion. Whew! Okay I'm done.

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Jun 7, 2013 10:47:21   #
newbie147 Loc: Manchester UK
 
Well it's obviously not working. It didn't stop the Boston bombers. Unfortunately Great Britain (and i use that desciption loosely) is trying to follow suit.

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Jun 7, 2013 11:37:55   #
DougW Loc: SoCal
 
If the IRS was targeting political opposition, what is the NSA doing?

Obama says that it is wrong to distrust the government. Ya Riiiight.

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Jun 7, 2013 11:43:59   #
pbearperry Loc: Massachusetts
 
Richard94611 wrote:
So what do we as citizens do about this situation ? Suggestions, anyone ?


Vote all incumbents out of office would be a good start.

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Jun 7, 2013 11:58:39   #
jimmya Loc: Phoenix
 
Richard94611 wrote:
Don't fall off your chair in front of the computer, but although I have supported Obama in many things, here's where I cannot. That Verizon's phone data (and probably that of every other phone company) about you is being collected by the government. Hey, you conservatives, which side on this one do you take -- that in the interests of security we should monitor everyone's phone calls without probably cause, or that this is a disgrace ? I would love to know how you feel about this rape of privacy.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/06/06
Don't fall off your chair in front of the computer... (show quote)


As with any issue there are always two sides so here's my take - you can, of course, take it or leave it.

Terrorists often communicate using cell phones... we know that. We also know that if we get a tip and then wait for "probable cause" to kick in, the bomb will have already exploded leaving who knows how many dead.

So, for this issue and this issue only, I throw probable cause out the window. Using this method, I read today, one possible act of terror was stopped because the agency caught the information before the bad guys had a chance to do their damage. Had they waited for probable cause, the bomb would have exploded before the good guys, that's us, could even act on it.

Probable cause is important in general day to day law enforcement. However for this issue it's not - not in my opinion anyway.

Besides I'd ask, if you have a conversation that's so private that you want absolutely no one to hear it then do it face to face. That's how most terrorists do it now days - face to face.

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Jun 7, 2013 12:17:50   #
DougW Loc: SoCal
 
jimmya wrote:
As with any issue there are always two sides so here's my take - you can, of course, take it or leave it.

Terrorists often communicate using cell phones... we know that. We also know that if we get a tip and then wait for "probable cause" to kick in, the bomb will have already exploded leaving who knows how many dead.

So, for this issue and this issue only, I throw probable cause out the window. Using this method, I read today, one possible act of terror was stopped because the agency caught the information before the bad guys had a chance to do their damage. Had they waited for probable cause, the bomb would have exploded before the good guys, that's us, could even act on it.

Probable cause is important in general day to day law enforcement. However for this issue it's not - not in my opinion anyway.

Besides I'd ask, if you have a conversation that's so private that you want absolutely no one to hear it then do it face to face. That's how most terrorists do it now days - face to face.
As with any issue there are always two sides so he... (show quote)


You mentioned the " B " word in your post, so now the NSA has YOU on their watch list.



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Jun 7, 2013 12:22:06   #
jimmya Loc: Phoenix
 
DougW wrote:
You mentioned the " B " word in your post, so now the NSA has YOU on their watch list.


Oh no, I guess I'm in trouble now.

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Jun 7, 2013 12:27:22   #
DougW Loc: SoCal
 
What was that song? "Paranoia strikes deep"

I was always told " just because you're paranoid, dosnt mean they aren't out to get you"

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Jun 7, 2013 12:29:30   #
jimmya Loc: Phoenix
 
jimmya wrote:
Oh no, I guess I'm in trouble now.


True

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