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Shutter count... Hmm?
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Feb 16, 2018 16:51:29   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
The cost to replace a DSLR shutter is in the $400 range for consumers like you and me. "Refurbish" does not mean "rebuild" the camera. Your typical refurbish is an inspection of the camera against specs, not a repair. That inspection is a camera with little use, such as an unsold body returned from a store or returned from a customer in the original packaging. The multiple questions about shutters seems to be out of proportion to the likelihood of a problem in this area.

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Feb 16, 2018 16:58:00   #
Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.
 
bellgamin wrote:
Thanks for all the helpful replies. Automobiles clearly show their mileage. I had hoped that digital cameras would do the same. It seems that they don't. The data is available but they don't advertise that fact, neither do they make it easy to get at. If they did make it easy then KEH & other shops might not mind disclosing this data in their listings. It seems that Olympus cameras are an exception ... their click count is available by a simple series of clicks.

In my opinion, shutter count should be readily available on a dslr's menu. I think it would be a selling point. I would certainly be much more likely to buy a camera with this feature, all other factors being about equal.

What I learned so far from this thread leads me to ask 3 more questions-----

==> If I buy a manufacturer refurbished camera, does that mean that, for SURE, the shutter has been restored? If not, then why bother?

==> For future reference, just in case, is there a reliable shop in the western USA that more or less specializes in dslr shutter repairs and gives a decent warranty of their work?

==> Have I blundered into a reason why it might be best to go for mirrorless cameras in the future? Might not mirrorless cameras inherently have longer average lifespans for their shutters than is the case for mirrored cameras?
Thanks for all the helpful replies. Automobiles cl... (show quote)


==> In my opinion, shutter count should be readily available on a dslr's menu. I think it would be a selling point. I would certainly be much more likely to buy a camera with this feature, all other factors being about equal.

For some Canon cameras there is an unofficial hack called Magic Lantern that is very useful. For the cameras that it runs on it does display shutter count in the menus.

What I learned so far from this thread leads me to ask 3 more questions-----

==> If I buy a manufacturer refurbished camera, does that mean that, for SURE, the shutter has been restored? If not, then why bother?

No. Most manufacturer refurbished cameras have a pretty low shutter count, so it wouldn't make sense to replace the shutter. I bought a refurb Canon 80D last August - Canon refurbs come with 12 month warranty, the same as new - and I was surprised to find just under 3K shutter clicks, they're often much lower than that, but the camera was in great shape and even 3K is hardly anything, so I was not concerned.

==> For future reference, just in case, is there a reliable shop in the western USA that more or less specializes in dslr shutter repairs and gives a decent warranty of their work?

I have no knowledge of such a thing. I would return it to the manufacturer.

==> Have I blundered into a reason why it might be best to go for mirrorless cameras in the future? Might not mirrorless cameras inherently have longer average lifespans for their shutters than is the case for mirrored cameras?

No. Even mirrorless cameras normally still have mechanical shutters, so there can still be failures. Perhaps some of our mirrorless evangelists could comment on shutter life for them.

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Feb 17, 2018 06:45:46   #
Barny
 
Peterff wrote:
Many good responses have already been made, but I'll try to add a little extra value.

1) a) I own a few Nikons. One of them is a D300 dslr. How would I determine this camera's shutter count?

Lot's of ways since Nikon publishes shutter count in the EXIF data, if the file has not been modified in software. Different EXIF viewers may call the record by different names, and some EXIF viewers report different amounts of information. There is also software that can retrieve the information directly from Nikon cameras, although one regular contributor to UHH categorically denies that.

b) Is the technique the same for all makes and types of cameras?

No. Canon does not put shutter count information in EXIF data. It can be accessed in various ways, the easiest by software, on such package is EOSmsg (http://eosmsg.com/). It is not free, costing between $5 and $10 for each individual camera for as many readings as one wishes and supports many Canon, Nikon, Pentax and Sony cameras.

2) Could a seller *adjust* a camera's shutter count so as to misrepresent the usage of the camera? Is it impossible to fudge the count or merely difficult? Would "refurbished" play any role in a camera's shutter count?

To the best of my knowledge it is not possible. It is possible to edit the EXIF data in an image, but takes effort and deceit to do. Refurbished cameras - at least from the manufacturer - come with reliable shutter count information.

3) I read somewhere that the average life expectancy of shutters on recently made, good quality cameras is around 100,000 clicks. But I have seen cameras with much higher shutter counts than 100,000 rated as condition Excellent. What IS a reasonable shutter count max? 100,000 is not a bad number to work with a few may 75,000 and some 150,000 or more for high end models. It is simply an MTBF estimate (Mean or average time between failures) and no guarantee. It will depend upon your usage of course, and occasionally being lucky or unlucky, but if you capture 10,000 images per year then the camera should last about ten years, which is a long time in electronics. Shutter replacements are not horribly expensive if needed.

4) As far as I could tell, KEH gives their used cameras an adjectival rating (such as excellent, good, bargain, ugly) but do not give shutter count -- at least, not as I have ever seen. I wonder why?

I would speculate that their margins are not huge, so the cost of checking every camera would eat into their profits, and also mean that some cameras would probably languish in their inventory or have to have a significantly lower price.

5) Many Ebay sellers do not reveal shutter count. I even ran across an experienced seller with a 99.8% rating who wrote, "I don't know the shutter count." I avoid sellers who do not disclose click count, but I wonder if that is a fully valid criterion on my part?

I would speculate (again) that many do not know how to do that. Also there is the time constraint and the liability from providing too much information to a buyer, since anything deemed inaccurate is grounds for a return which erodes profits.

I hope this has been of some help.
Many good responses have already been made, but I'... (show quote)


Open a Nikon pic (JPG or NEF) with Picasa 3 and the shutter count is in the EXIF data. Scroll down to the bottom
Works with D5100, D7200 & D500

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Feb 17, 2018 07:04:17   #
dcampbell52 Loc: Clearwater Fl
 
rgrenaderphoto wrote:
The reported 100,000 shutter cycles is know an mean time between failure, MTBF, and is an average of the anticipated life of the mechanism. The D810 has a middle life of 100,000, but there are models reported with in excess of 500,000.

This guy is the shutter count fanatic:

https://www.olegkikin.com/shutterlife/

And yes, if Nikon replaces the shutter mechanism, the shutter count is not rolled back.


Agreed, Nikon Service will never, ever, reset or roll back a shutter count. The shutter count reflects usage of the ENTIRE camera body and not just the shutter. There are many parts to the camera body that can be affected and it would be unfair to have the shutter count set at 0 when ONLY the shutter mechanism was replaced. How about the focusing motor (for NON-silent wave lenses?) or many other things. Yes, the shutter count is similar to the odometer on a car. The car odometer represents, not only wear and tear on the engine, but the transmission, suspension, body, electronics and everything else that may not have been replaced or repaired when the odometer was replaced. This is why Nikon doesn't do shutter count resets.

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Feb 17, 2018 07:32:24   #
picsman Loc: Scotland
 
My D750 has a shutter count of over 250,000 for what it is worth. I think I will replace it with another D750 when the time comes.

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Feb 17, 2018 08:12:49   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
The Canon 1Dx MkII now has a menu item which reports the shutter actuations to less than the nearest thousand. I believe the shutter is rated at 400,000 so 1000 is roughly a quarter percent. Close enough for most purposes.

Best,
Todd Ferguson

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Feb 17, 2018 08:35:27   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
mas24 wrote:
Nikon does not reverse shutter counts on their cameras. Even, if you get a new shutter replacement. I remember an old friend telling me, he changed odometer mileages on used cars, when he was a young adult. To fool buyers. He still feels guilty today having done that. Here is an additional link. www.nikonshuttercount.com


On an automobile in many states that is fraud (and lying to the DMV) and could get you a good amount of jail time.

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Feb 17, 2018 08:59:17   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
Agreed, but when is the last time you have seen someone go to jail over it??? Sort of like parking in a Handicapped Space, I have never seen anyone get even a ticket for doing that in 40 years of driving...

lamiaceae wrote:
On an automobile in many states that is fraud (and lying to the DMV) and could get you a good amount of jail time.

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Feb 17, 2018 09:12:08   #
DaveC1 Loc: South East US
 
dcampbell52 wrote:
Agreed, Nikon Service will never, ever, reset or roll back a shutter count. The shutter count reflects usage of the ENTIRE camera body and not just the shutter. There are many parts to the camera body that can be affected and it would be unfair to have the shutter count set at 0 when ONLY the shutter mechanism was replaced. How about the focusing motor (for NON-silent wave lenses?) or many other things. Yes, the shutter count is similar to the odometer on a car. The car odometer represents, not only wear and tear on the engine, but the transmission, suspension, body, electronics and everything else that may not have been replaced or repaired when the odometer was replaced. This is why Nikon doesn't do shutter count resets.
Agreed, Nikon Service will never, ever, reset or r... (show quote)


Please see my post on page one. It appears that Nikon does reset shutter counts sometimes.

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Feb 17, 2018 09:31:53   #
markngolf Loc: Bridgewater, NJ
 
bellgamin wrote:
When shopping for used cameras, I always look for each camera's shutter count. In line with caveat emptor, I have a few questions.....

1) I own a few Nikons. One of them is a D300 dslr. How would I determine this camera's shutter count? Is the technique the same for all makes and types of cameras?

2) Could a seller *adjust* a camera's shutter count so as to misrepresent the usage of the camera? Is it impossible to fudge the count or merely difficult? Would "refurbished" play any role in a camera's shutter count?

3) I read somewhere that the average life expectancy of shutters on recently made, good quality cameras is around 100,000 clicks. But I have seen cameras with much higher shutter counts than 100,000 rated as condition Excellent. What IS a reasonable shutter count max?

4) As far as I could tell, KEH gives their used cameras an adjectival rating (such as excellent, good, bargain, ugly) but do not give shutter count -- at least, not as I have ever seen. I wonder why?

5) Many Ebay sellers do not reveal shutter count. I even ran across an experienced seller with a 99.8% rating who wrote, "I don't know the shutter count." I avoid sellers who do not disclose click count, but I wonder if that is a fully valid criterion on my part?

Thanks for any comments you may care to offer. Aloha from Hawaii. 😇
When shopping for used cameras, I always look for ... (show quote)


Perhaps I'm of a minority for this take on "shutter count". My Canon 5D MIII cost $3000 when purchased in 2013. The last time I checked, the shutter count was around 60,000. If the shutter needs replacing, Canon's approximate charge is $220. Compared to the original cost and/or value of the camera, $220 is not a huge expense. I pay almost as much for a service on my wife's 2012 Accord with 103,000 miles or my 1999 CRV with 151,000.

Many people consume a 6 pack of beer every other day. I don't, but if I did the yearly cost would be $1000+. Shutters are "cheap" compared to beer.
Just my opinion.
Mark

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Feb 17, 2018 09:32:47   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
CHG_CANON "The multiple questions about shutters seems to be out of proportion to the likelihood of a problem in this area."


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Feb 17, 2018 09:33:13   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
Agreed, but when is the last time you have seen someone go to jail over it??? Sort of like parking in a Handicapped Space, I have never seen anyone get even a ticket for doing that in 40 years of driving...


Actually none of us would really know would we, it is not going to get on the 6 o'clock news. But you might see you neighbor who sells cars on the street with out a business license get into more trouble and "disappear" for a while more for the fraud than the seller's license and state board of equalization problem over not collecting sales tax issues. Where I live lots of people sell questionable used cars.

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Feb 17, 2018 09:34:25   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
markngolf wrote:
Perhaps I'm of a minority for this take on "shutter count". My Canon 5D MIII cost $3000 when purchased in 2013. The last time I checked, the shutter count was around 60,000. If the shutter needs replacing, Canon's approximate charge is $220. Compared to the original cost and/or value of the camera, $220 is not a huge expense. I pay almost as much for a service on my wife's 2012 Accord with 103,000 miles or my 1999 CRV with 151,000.

Many people consume a 6 pack of beer every other day. I don't, but if I did the yearly cost would be $1000+. Shutters are "cheap" compared to beer.
Just my opinion.
Mark
Perhaps I'm of a minority for this take on "s... (show quote)


Good point!

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Feb 17, 2018 09:34:54   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
Rich1939 wrote:
CHG_CANON "The multiple questions about shutters seems to be out of proportion to the likelihood of a problem in this area."



I think that is true too.

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Feb 17, 2018 09:39:07   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
markngolf wrote:
Perhaps I'm of a minority for this take on "shutter count". My Canon 5D MIII cost $3000 when purchased in 2013. The last time I checked, the shutter count was around 60,000. If the shutter needs replacing, Canon's approximate charge is $220. Compared to the original cost and/or value of the camera, $220 is not a huge expense. I pay almost as much for a service on my wife's 2012 Accord with 103,000 miles or my 1999 CRV with 151,000.

Many people consume a 6 pack of beer every other day. I don't, but if I did the yearly cost would be $1000+. Shutters are "cheap" compared to beer.
Just my opinion.
Mark
Perhaps I'm of a minority for this take on "s... (show quote)




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