Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Posts for: Mongo
Page: <<prev 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 next>>
Apr 14, 2019 18:35:45   #
Larryshuman wrote:
All cameras have a native ISO. When ISO is changed upward it is gain that is increased and with increase of gain come increased noise. Read Steve Perry's new ebook on metering and in the last 20 or so pages he goes into this very subject.


And my point is that for a designer, faced with marketing expectations, it is easy to have the ISO knob be a knob that does not in reality, for each click, change sensitivity (quantum efficiency perhaps) for noise.

Depending upon the architecture of the sensor, there are several ways to increase gain. However, noise is always present. So if there is less signal, the signal to noise level is likely to be poorer.
Go to
Apr 14, 2019 18:28:03   #
Chris T wrote:
The posts here seem to be numerous in relation to this topic. Some seem to believe there's more leeway with 46-50MP cameras. Others think you're better off with 12MP or 16MP sensor cameras. Am trying to sort it all out, here. What has been YOUR experience? Are you better off with high MP sensors or low MP sensors?


A low resolution display will mask the performance of the optics. You still get the same image with the same optics.

I think I posted it in a different thread, but as an example, some camera designers will aggregate pixels to get a higher sensitivity, and the spatial distribution of those aggregated pixels is usually 2x.

Me? I want all the gamut I can get! Low noise, high dynamic range, and lots of pixels packed really really tight together. Anything else is a compromise.
Go to
Apr 14, 2019 17:58:08   #
Dikdik wrote:
I hear that camera manufacturers are adding noise to higher ISOs to give photographers the impression that ISO means something.

Dik


Ha ha, good rumor!

Camera manufacturers have also added algorithms for film effects, including grain, scratches, etc. About the only film effect I have not heard implemented is exposure reciprocity. And someone probably has done that, I just didn't find out about it.
Go to
Apr 14, 2019 17:50:11   #
wdross wrote:
It comes down to algorithms and what the manufacturer feels are the better needs of their camera users. My finding on my Olympus E-M1mkII are that the ISO is set between 64 (lowest setting) and 6400 until the total range is used up for both the aperture and the shutter. Then it will continue to move the ISO higher passed the 6400 mark as necessary.


It is not just the algorithms (I've written them), it is more about the desired performance of the camera system, the sensor to be used and the architecture of the sensor. It might be about how the sensor handles higher ISO settings, for example, whether it aggregates pixels to reduce noise, and increase area the area of the pixel.

Granted, today most cameras are CMOS, but just a few years ago, CCDs were much more common and they had all kinds of trades which could be made for higher sensitivities.

Also, unless you know for a fact how your camera manufacturer establishes the lowest ISO, I would not assume that it will give you the lowest noise. It might, or it may not. It is a function of how it was implemented.

It is clear from the frustrations that people have, that AUTO-ISO needs another generation of development. I for one would like to define weighting or costs for the trades of ISO/APERTURE/SHUTTER, which might also include noise considerations, and so on.

Just one final word...allot of what we see about ISO ranges is a manipulation of the camera design for the benefit of marketing.
Go to
Apr 14, 2019 16:53:15   #
Blenheim Orange wrote:
Tony Northrop makes the case in this video that ISO is meaningless for digital cameras.

"ISO is totally FAKE. Seriously."

https://youtu.be/QVuI89YWAsw


Tony is right, and wrong. It depends upon the camera system designer, and the sensor designer.
Go to
Apr 14, 2019 16:47:26   #
Chris T wrote:
Yes, I've been there, Mongo … and yes, I do understand what diffraction IS, and where it cuts in. On my own post on Diffraction - I look at the formats - which ones constrict diffraction the most, and how this is all related to high-MP, high-density sensors. It's understood diffraction is a general cloudiness of images, which is seen most at minimum apertures, especially when you're aiming for GREATER DOF. Which is why I was concerned with your reference to "ringing" of artifacts. To me - these things don't seem the same.\
Yes, I've been there, Mongo … and yes, I do unders... (show quote)


Chris, the ringing artifacts are effectively a point spread function, similar to an MTF. The level of ringing is a quantum effect and creates a "blur." The size of that blur is more recognizable in high density sensors (such as on some dSLRs).

The point spread function (PSF) of an optical system (normally characterized on axis) is used as a quality metric of that system as it describes the input/output relationship of the optical system. Functionally, it is measured in the spatial domain, and MTF charts and other charts used to characterize system performance are used for this. Changing the aperture of a camera lens, changes the PSF, and it is normally at it's best at the lens' "sweet spot."

If one has a low resolution sensor, the optical system impulse response, which can be described by the PSF, matters less, because the sensor has less spatial resolution. In some cameras, adjacent pixels are aggregated, to create a larger pixel size. This tends to make the "blur" less apparent when looking at the aggregated pixels. However, it hasn't gone away, it is still there, it is just the sensor will not let you resolve it.

Everything is interrelated. There is a trade between resolution and dynamic range. So a camera with a lesser spatial resolution but a higher dynamic range can be perceived to perform as well as a camera with a higher spatial resolution with a lesser dynamic range. (A certain camera manufacturer lost market share over that issue, because most of the people buying cameras looked at the spatial resolution, not the color gamut. A story for a different day.)

With a suitable density (spatial resolution) imaging system, the ringing from diffraction effects can be seen near high contrast edges. I used the twigs in the trees when I looked at the OP image.

So to go back to the OP's question, there may indeed be diffraction effects which are limiting the resolving capability of the camera, but the area inside the red circle is something else. To me it looks like some kind of flare. It could be caused by many different things, but I have seen flare like that from filters, such as a UV filter, which tend to have less optimized anti-reflective coatings than the lens elements. Perhaps a lens system designer could provide suggestions as to what source might be more probable.
Go to
Apr 13, 2019 18:14:37   #
Very nice effect! Well done.
Go to
Apr 13, 2019 18:03:49   #
Chris T wrote:
I see, Mongo … thanks for your input. So, you are indicating these artifacts are NOT caused by diffraction, then - since there are NO "ringing effects" around them … interesting …


Chris, normally diffraction is a global artifact, not limited to one spot, like the light working it's way through the branches. My guess is that there is some flare there, or perhaps a spec of something on a UV filter or something like that.

There is a wiki on diffraction-limited systems, which while very technical, may provide some additional understanding for you. When we had customers say they wanted diffraction-limited systems, they were saying that they wanted systems optimized for the best that could be produced given various parameters.

Perhaps more to the general photography interest, there is a tutorial on diffraction at cambridgeincolour.com. There is a modeling tool where you can see what an airy disk would look like on many common cameras. Ditto for some similar demonstrations.

If you still have questions, let me know.

In hobby photography, diffraction is normally a limitation, as you know at smaller f-stops, which impacts resolving power (and therefore, image clarity).
Go to
Apr 13, 2019 11:53:18   #
I think a term commonly used is "airy disk."
Go to
Apr 13, 2019 11:49:34   #
Chris,

Normally one would see some patterning or rings around the artifact. Perhaps with some chromatic variability. It would come from interference patterns of the diffraction, which will be at different angles depending upon the wavelength.

I looked at things on a phone, not a computer monitor, but I would look at the grasses mid-picture for ringing effects.
Go to
Apr 13, 2019 06:45:34   #
Wow. If the road paint was just faded...
Go to
Apr 13, 2019 06:44:01   #
I think you have some other types of artifacts. If your spot were to be substantially diffraction influenced, I would expect some ringing around the spot.

I would do some experiments if it were my camera to better characterize what's happening.

I worked as an image scientist for Kodak for 37 years.
Go to
Apr 13, 2019 06:32:52   #
I had two adolescent male peacocks show up one day. The less dominant one left as they matured. I live in a rural area. After more than a year the peacock had a truck collision and died. Sure looked nice however.

He managed our winter, which is pretty brutal. He also found every mouse and snake and I had zero critter problems.

He got pretty used to us. My only complaint is that he liked hanging out on the steering wheel of my tractor.
Go to
Apr 9, 2019 23:23:56   #
Thanks everyone!

I have been using Gimp for about 15 years, but not much for photos. The other suggestions are great, and I will likely load several of them and try them out. Ones that were not mentioned here, I will be more likely to skip over.

Also the comments on Android are appreciated. I think tablets as very capable devices, but did not give much consideration to the fact that the bulk of the applications are written for phones, rather than large tablets. That's OK, the ideas presented will help save me time looking at things, and serve to set my expectations before I invest much time.

For general info, I pretty much shoot RAW all the time, and having packages like Darktable, lr, etc will simplify things like color balance and gamut adjustments. The machines I have are big and I have a large network with several NAS, so that is the general system view for much of my processing. I may still be able to use a tablet to get a rough cut on an image, but we will see.

Again, thanks all. More and better answers were received than I thought I might get, so this has been pleasant.
Go to
Apr 8, 2019 13:27:50   #
Not off track, and appreciated.
Go to
Page: <<prev 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 next>>
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.