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Feb 25, 2021 17:20:57   #
Thanks for all the replies. I'm satisfied with the answers given.
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Feb 25, 2021 16:03:28   #
bclaff wrote:
Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) is normalized to a standard image size and viewing conditions.
The DX (APS-C) capture must be enlarge more than the FX (FF) one.
For some details see DX Crop Mode Photographic Dynamic Range


That makes sense, so as Ysarex said, if one just took a crop out of a full frame sensor image without resizing there would be no impact?
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Feb 25, 2021 15:28:45   #
Ysarex wrote:
Yes.

The noise is always there. The noise that we're concerned about in this case and that limits DR is shot noise. It's in the signal and it's always in the signal. For us to see it we have to enlarge the image.


OK that makes sense, and also seems to answer Larry's question about crop camera vs. cropping full frame.
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Feb 25, 2021 14:53:30   #
larryepage wrote:
So just for fun, I went back to the P to P site and plugged in the D500 against the D850 and the D850 DX. That produced even more interesting results (at least to me). Specifically, despite having slightly smaller sensor elements and a little bit older sensor technology (and no BSI design), the D500 shows as being better than the D850 in DX mode by about 0.3 stop, all the way down the line. I am personally convinced that the D500 is quite a bit better than most on this forum give it credit for being, but still believe that this is also a surprising result...perhaps even more surprising to me than your initial discovery.

I'm not too disturbed by any of this, because I firmly believe that actual performance and experience trumps any test results claimed by any single source. But I do think that an inquiry to Photons to Photos asking why they are displaying these at least apparently inconsistent results is not out of order.
So just for fun, I went back to the P to P site an... (show quote)


That's a common theme in the 'crop your full frame camera vs. buy a crop sensor camera' debate. At some point in cropping the crop sensor camera wins.
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Feb 25, 2021 14:41:15   #
Rongnongno wrote:
A crop does not reduce the Dynamic Range. A crop limits the size of a capture in pixels as well as the number of possible colors but does not change the DR capabilities of a sensor.


The same relationship seems to hold for every full frame vs. Crop sensor, though. My thought was it was related to magnifying noise if you resized so the two images were equal.


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Feb 25, 2021 13:52:30   #
Ysarex wrote:
Noise increases because of the different total areas of the sensor used. Use the whole sensor and you record more total light than if you use the smaller cropped area. Noise will increase/decrease with the total amount of light recorded. SNR is a ratio and goes up or down with the total amount of light recorded.

Try this analogy: You have two cookie pans -- one is 11 x 15 inches and the other is 9 x 12 inches. You put them both out in the rain together and allow them to collect water for 1 minute. That 1 minute is exposure time. After a minute it stops raining and you measure the depth of water in each pan -- it's the same. That's exposure. But now pour the water from both pans into two separate bowls. Do both bowls have the same amount of water? The larger pan collected more water. In the same way a larger sensor will collect more light. Noise (shot noise which is the noise we're concerned with) as a ratio to the signal will decrease with more light collected -- stronger signal.

All else the same, bigger sensors are less noisy than smaller sensors. Noise limits DR.
Noise increases because of the different total are... (show quote)


I'm not saying I understand at this point. So a full frame image cropped in post but not resized in any way would have more noise in the cropped portion even though those pixels are identical to the original? Or would the cropped portion have to be resized to equal the original dimensions before the relative noise increased?
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Feb 25, 2021 13:45:36   #
Ednsb wrote:
While my RP isn’t as sophisticated as the R5 or R6 it does allow to initiate a sensor cleaning which does put a cover over the sensor. I have taken that process to a custom workflow so that i can select it then change lens. Definitely would not work if i was shooting action but for landscapes no problem

And boy there are a lot of snarky people on this thread.


I checked my RP just now. Removed the lens after sensor cleaning, still see the uncovered sensor. How do you get it to cover?
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Feb 25, 2021 13:31:19   #
Ysarex wrote:
In a word: noise.

The smaller sensor area is noisier (because it's smaller) and so the data is noise swamped sooner.


Could you expand your explanation a little? If it the same sensor area just a smaller section why does the noise increase?
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Feb 25, 2021 13:27:21   #
Longshadow wrote:
The URL tag should be used to prevent truncation by the parser at various characters, like commas-

https://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D850,Nikon%20D850(DX)


Thanks. I updated mine.
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Feb 25, 2021 13:19:57   #
larryepage wrote:
I cannot come up with a reason this would occur. Seems like a pretty good question to ask the Photons to Photos folks.


It's just that it is often stated that cropping of any image, even cropping a photo in post, reduces its dynamic range even though one is using the same pixels from the original image. I thought maybe magnification of noise, but just speculating.
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Feb 25, 2021 12:55:01   #
Example using Nikon d850, I don't know why it won't take the whole link, you have to click the Nikon d850 dx mode from the list.

https://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D850,Nikon%20D850(DX)
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Feb 25, 2021 12:54:34   #
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Feb 25, 2021 12:54:25   #
When I go to the dynamic range section of the photonstophotos website and plot any full frame camera in full frame mode next to the same camera in crop mode, the dynamic range of the crop mode is always less by the same amount at every point.

So the same camera, the same sensor, the same test conditions, the only difference is that one is measuring the cropped area of the same sensor while the other measures the full frame portion of the same sensor.

So why does cropping alone reduce dynamic range?
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Feb 25, 2021 12:07:21   #
BebuLamar wrote:
Not all mirrorless have mechanical shutter but as far as I know there is none with interchangeable lens that doesn't have a mechanical shutter. I heard something about Sigma but I can't verify. In fact it would be a great achievement if the mechanical shutter is no longer needed.


The canon RP can't be set to full mechanical. The closest to full mechanical is electronic first curtain/mechanical second curtain.
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Feb 24, 2021 18:55:04   #
The 6dii is on the list as supported by Photoshop elements 2021. So that should work. Also a link to the dng converter if you want to use the old Photoshop. As mentioned the free dpp4 can be downloaded at your camera support page and then you can send it to Photoshop from there.

https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/kb/camera-raw-plug-supported-cameras.html

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/support/details/cameras/eos-dslr-and-mirrorless-cameras/dslr/eos-6d-mark-ii?tab=drivers_downloads
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