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Jan 3, 2015 15:40:36   #
Bear Bryant was in my opinion THE GREATEST COACH in his time. Despite his lack of success in beating the IRISH, he was always ontop of his game. I read a story long ago about a time he was on the road recruiting (not sure where, but I believe it was in a very remote and poor town in his own state) for a defensive lineman. As the story goes, it was late afternoon and the BEAR had been driving numerous hours and missed his turn while ending up in the backroads. He later said that he was some two hours off his main path (no GPS back then), when he came upon this really old beatup off the beaten path of a worn down "shack" as he called it. Said he laded his gun in his hip pocket for protection while entering the establishment as he feared for his life (never knew him to FEAR anything). Upon entering he was greeted by a rather HUGE black gentleman who owned this "shack". The Bear told this fellow what he was in search of and the gentleman recognized who this stranger was that just entered his business. After some greetings and the BEAR realized he was safe and in good company, the gentleman provided a FREE meal for the Bear. I can not recall what the meat serving was, but it is very popular to thos in that area of Alabama. After spending a much longer than planned time with each other, the Bear reached into his pocket to pay for this mean and the black gentleman refused to accept any funds. After thanking the gentleman Bear went to his car and returned with a huge poster of his previous years National Championship team that he himself signed. The gentleman siad he would post it on the wall for all his customers to view. As it turned out, this gentlemans grandson (I can not recall his name or what position he played) went on to play and was an All American for Alabama a few years later. In closing Pounder, I also recall that the great "Bubba Smith" had always dreamed of playing for Alabama and especially for The Bear. However at the time Bubba was to graduate from HS, the south was not accepting Black students (due to its stong stand on segragation ...such a shame IMO) and Bubba ended up at Michigan State

pounder35 wrote:
The "hate" word was a little strong. The series has been lopsided in Notre Dame's favor. The biggest problem Bama fans have is that Bear Bryant was never able to beat you guys. I was in Birmingham, AL. when we finally won. The night before the game there was a joint pep rally in a ballroom at the Wynfrey. When I first heard of that I thought it was a crazy idea but everybody got along and had a great time.
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Jan 2, 2015 20:48:42   #
I have understand and don't have a problem with that. Lot's of folks despise ND, but what can I say...that's MY team. Just liike my IRISH, BAMA has had a tremendous amount of gifted athletes come from their school... Starr and Namath come to mind first. But there have been loads of others that I'm sure you can add to my list. I was shocked as you and the world was last night that BAMA lost. Just a few too many costly 2nd half turnovers

pounder35 wrote:
Being a BAMA fan I have a certain hatred of Notre Dame. :lol: Similar to our cross state rival Auburn.
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Jan 2, 2015 20:17:04   #
I recall sometime back that a fellow UHH member wrote on this forum that he was pulled over by a policeman at 3:30 in the morning while travelling through a school zone doing 35mph. The soon to be father was in route to the hospital with his wife and again soon to be "first born" child when he was stopped. He claimed he politely informed the officer that his wife was in labor and he could use an escort if the officer would oblige. Apparently as the article foretold, the officer got upset and handcuffed the new father to be and called for a patty wagon to take the father to jail. Keep in mind this was 3:30am and the officer had stopped the father because the school zone speed limit was 15mph. It happened to be at a time when there were "NO" classes due to the hour of the day and it was supposedly in the middle of the summer and a Sunday as well. The father was taken to jail for, can you believe this, "bribing an officer" when he apparently asked for an escort. The entire time the wife who happened to be in labor was left sitting in her vehicle waiting for her mother to arrive and take her to the hospital some 25 minutes away. The article concluded saying the new mother delivered a daughter in transit in the back seat of her mother's vehicle just as they pulled into the hospital Emergency parking lot. This was supposedly a true story and again I apologize as I do not recall the UHH member who claims it was him that this actually happened to. I have not heard anything since and was always curious if the writer was telling the truth or just wanting attention.

jerryc41 wrote:
My poor neighbor. He got off work at 6:30 last night and started driving out of the mall. Before long, he had flashing lights behind him. The town cop who came to his window said that he hadn't made a complete stop at the Stop sign - in the parking lot. So, after working a full shift on New Year's Eve, and heading home to a family gathering, he gets stopped for not coming to a complete stop in a parking lot.

I had seen people pulled over there before, and I was surprised that cops would bother with a Stop sign in an area that gets very little traffic. Even on a busy day, you hardly see any cars in that area. After seeing people getting stopped there, I have been extra careful when driving in that mall. Yes, I know that traffic signs in parking lots and malls must be obeyed, but this was all about revenue, not about safety. The cop even told my neighbor that he "hides over there" to catch people.

And you wonder why some people hate police. "To Protect and to $erve."
My poor neighbor. He got off work at 6:30 last ni... (show quote)
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Jan 2, 2015 19:56:17   #
Sorry to disappoint you my friend "pounder" but your not alone eating that crow. Being from Big Ten country that I was for many years, you would think I would be happy for the Ohio State win. Have not been an Ohio State fan since "WOODY" threw that punch against the kid from Clemson. I have always (regardless of outcome) been a huge ND fan. My dad would tell my siblings and cousins I was an IRISH fan long before I was conceived. LOL. My IRISH pulled one out against LSU Tuesday evening. As they say it had to be "The Luck Of The IRISH"!!!!! Oregon really put it to FSU. No offense meant towards JIMBO, but had it been a Bobby Bowden team, they may have still lost the game, but would not have been embarrassed by such a huge massacre. IMO
pounder35 wrote:
Can't win them all. Unless you're BAMA. I hope I don't have to eat crow tonight. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Dec 30, 2014 10:07:40   #
You owe me a new computer screen....just spewed my drink all over it upon reading the story :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Dec 30, 2014 09:56:20   #
You convinced me of your brilliance by saying "I'm here to tall ya" :?: :XD:


Singing Swan wrote:
What sort of information does it give you about myself if I admit to having resorted to a few of these fixes in my lifetime? I'm a single lady and I'm here to tall ya guys, you do not have the market cornered when it comes to brilliance!!!!
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Dec 29, 2014 12:46:50   #
Thanks Brian and the same to you my new friend :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
bcheary wrote:
You are welcome Tom. Have a great New Year. :-D
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Dec 29, 2014 10:48:46   #
"To each his own" sir. :?:

DePratt wrote:
"want too" is mythical :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
DePratt
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Dec 29, 2014 08:50:59   #
Thanks Brian, for getting my day off with a smile :D and may I offer my famous saying to make your day:

"May you live as long as you want to and "want too" as long as you live"!

Harry (you know the rest).....my bad, I know, my bad :wink: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Dec 29, 2014 08:41:28   #
Bob, I salute you sir for a remarkable and well written history lesson supported by sound evidence. Excellent job sir. It's obvious from the facts that you did an extensive amount of research and you presented it like a well versed author "In My Humble Opinion". Again thank you Bob for the education. And just a thought, please don't misinterpret this as being sarcastic as it is no way intended to be. I'm just curious if there were any "Leap Years" in this time period you listed. if so, could that also have any effect on the December 25 date we Christians recognize as Christ date of birth. I respect your response and look forward to it. You are welcome to "PM" me should you prefer to do so. Thanks again Bob.....Superior edifice on your behalf. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


bob44044 wrote:
WHEN WAS JESUS BORN?

The Gospel of Matthew tells us that Jesus Christ was born in the final years of Herod the Great.

HERE'S WHEN HEROD THE GREAT ACTUALLY DIED . . .

For just over a hundred years, the question of when Herod the Great died has been dominated by a proposal by the German scholar Emil Schurer.

He suggested that Herod died in 4 B.C., and this view took off in scholarly circles, even though the arguments for this position are exceptionally weak.

But recently, this date has been challenged.

So when did Herod actually die? You have to piece together the clues of history.

Start with: The Length of Herod's Reign

Here is how the first-century Roman-Jewish scholar, historian, Titus Flavius Josephus, describes the timing of Herod's death:

So Herod, having survived the slaughter of his son [Antipater] five days, died, having reigned thirty-four years, since he had caused Antigonus to be slain, and obtained his kingdom; but thirty-seven years since he had been made king by the Romans [War of the Jews, 1:33:8 (665); cf. Antiquities of the Jews 17:8:1 (191)].

As you can see, Josephus dates Herod's death by three events:

1.Five days after the execution of his son Antipater.
2.Thirty-four years after he "obtained his kingdom" (i.e., conquered Jerusalem and had its Hasmonean king, Antigonus, killed).
3.Thirty-seven years after "he had been made king by the Romans."

The death of Antipater isn't a particularly helpful clue, but the two ways of reckoning the length of his reign are.

First, though, we need to answer one question . . .

HOW IS JOSEPHUS COUNTING YEARS?

Kings don't tend to come into office on New Year's Day, and so they often serve a partial year before the next calendar year begins (regardless of which calendar is used).

They also don't die on the last day of the year, typically, so they also serve a partial year at the end of their reigns.

This creates complications for historians, because ancient authors sometimes count these additional part-years (especially the one at the beginning of the reign) as a full year.

Or they ignore the calendar year and treat the time that a king came into office as a kind of birthday and reckon his reign in years from that point.

WHAT SCHEME WAS JOSEPHUS USING?

Advocates of the idea that Herod died in 4 B.C. argue that he was named king in 40 B.C. To square that with a 37-year reign ending in 4. B.C., they must count the part year at the beginning of his reign and the part year at the end of it as years. That's the only way the math will work out.

The problem is that this is not how Josephus would have reckoned the years.

Biblical chronology scholar Andrew E. Steinmann comments:

There is no evidence for this inclusive way of reckoning the partial years--and every other reign in this period, including those of the Jewish high priests, are reckoned non-inclusively by Josephus [From Abraham to Paul, 223].

In other words, Josephus does not count the partial first year when dating reigns in this period.

Knowing that, what would we make of Josephus's two ways of dating Herod's reign?

HEROD APPOINTED KING

As we saw in the previous post, Josephus gave an impossible date (one that did not exist) for Herod's appointment as king.

He said it was in the 184th Olympiad, which ended in midyear 40 B.C. and that it was in the consulship of Calvinus and Pollio, which began in late 40 and extended into 39.

Those can't both be right, but one of them could be.

WHICH?

The evidence points to 39 B.C., because we have another source on this: The Roman historians Appian and Dio Cassius.

Appian wrote a history of the Roman civil wars in which he discusses the appointment of Herod in the midst of other events.

By comparing this set of events to how they are dated in Dio Cassius's Roman History, it can be shown that the events in question--including the appointment of Herod--took place in 39 B.C.

Given how Josephus dates reigns in this period, he would not have counted Herod's partial first year in 39 B.C. but would have started his count with 38 B.C.

Count 37 years forward from that and you have 1 B.C.

HEROD CONQUERS JERUSALEM

As we saw in the previous post, Josephus gives contradictory dating information for Herod's conquest of Jerusalem.

Some of the dating information he provides points to 37 B.C. and some points to 36 B.C.

Josephus said Herod died 34 years after the event.

Bearing in mind that Josephus wasn't counting partial first years, that would put Herod's death either in 2 B.C. (if he conquered Jerusalem in 37) or in 1 B.C. (if he conquered the city in 36).

There are various ways to try to resolve which, but some are rather complex.

At least one, however, is quite straightforward . . .

HEROD"S LUNAR ECLIPSE

We saw in the previously that Josephus said Herod died between a lunar eclipse and Passover.

There was a total lunar eclipse before Passover in 1 B.C.

The lunar eclipse in 1 B.C. fits the situation Josephus describes.

Since 4 B.C. is outside the range indicated above, and since the 1 B.C. lunar eclipse fits the situation better, that leads us to 1 B.C. as the correct date.

FINAL ANSWER?

Putting together the pieces above, we have:

•Reason to think Herod died in 1 B.C. based on the amount of time he served after being appointed king by the Romans.
•Reason to think Herod died in either 2 or 1 B.C. based on the amount of time he served after conquering Jerusalem.
•Reason to think Herod died in 1 B.C. because of the lunar eclipse that occurred before Passover.

More specifically, Herod would have died between January 10, 1 B.C. (the date of the lunar eclipse) and April 11, 1 B.C. (the date of Passover).

Most likely, it was closer to the latter date, since Josephus records a bunch of things Herod did after the eclipse and before his death, some of which required significant travel time.

This is also one more reason that we should reject the death of Herod in 4 B.C. in favor of a 1 B.C. date . . .


So . . . WHAT YEAR WAS JESUS BORN?


2-3 B.C.?

This date would be indicated if we start with Herod's death in 1 B.C. and then, taking into account the factors named above, backed up only one year, suggesting 2 B.C.

Then, if we back up another year to allow for the fact Herod didn't die immediately, that would suggest 3 B.C.

So, sometime between 2-3 B.C. would be reasonable, based on what we read in Matthew.

Do we have other evidence suggesting this date?

We do.

Both inside and outside the Bible.

THE GOSPEL OF LUKE

Luke records, for example, that John the Baptist began his ministry in "the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar" (3:1).

Tiberius became emperor after Augustus died in August of A.D. 14. Roman historians, however, tended to skip part years and begin counting an emperor's reign with the first January 1 after they took office.

On that reckoning, the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar would correspond to what we call A.D. 29. (Remember, the 15th year is the time between the completion of the 14th year and the completion of the 15th year, the same way a child's first year is the time between his birth and his first birthday.)

Jesus' ministry starts somewhat after John's, but it doesn't appear to be very long. Perhaps only a few weeks or months.

If so, Jesus' ministry also likely started in A.D. 29.

That's important, because Luke gives us a second clue: He says Jesus was "about thirty years of age" when he began his ministry (3:23).

So, if you take A.D. 29 and back up thirty years, when does that land you?

You might think in 1 B.C., but remember that there's no Year Zero, so it would actually be 2 B.C.

Or the end of 3 B.C. if Luke was counting Tiberius's reign from when he became emperor rather than from the next January 1.

Thus: 2-3 B.C. is a reasonable estimate.

That's still only an estimate, though, because Jesus could have been a little less or a little more than thirty.

To confirm our estimate, it would be nice if we had an exact naming of the year Jesus was born, and in fact we do . . .

THE FATHER KNOWS BEST

There is a startling consensus among early Christian sources about the year of Jesus' birth.

Here is a table adapted from Jack Finegan's excellent Handbook of Biblical Chronology (p. 291) giving the dates proposed by different sources:

The Alogoi 4 B.C. or A.D. 9
Cassiodorus Senator 3 B.C.
St. Irenaeus of Lyon 3 B.C. or 2 B.C.
St. Clement of Alexandria 3 B.C. or 2 B.C.
Tertullian of Carthage 3 B.C. or 2 B.C.
Julius Africanus 3 B.C. or 2 B.C.
St. Hippolytus of Rome 3 B.C. or 2 B.C.
“Hippolytus of Thebes” 3 B.C. or 2 B.C.
Origen of Alexandria 3 B.C. or 2 B.C.
Eusebius of Caesarea 3 B.C. or 2 B.C.
Epiphanius of Salamis 3 B.C. or 2 B.C.
Orosius 2 B.C.
Dionysius Exiguus 1 B.C.
The Chronographer of the Year 354 A.D. 1
As you can see, except for a few outliers, there is strong support for Jesus being born in either 3 or 2 B.C.

And note that some of the sources in this table are quite ancient. Irenaeus of Lyon, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Julius Africanus, and Hippolytus of Rome all wrote in the late 100s or early 200s.

We thus have strong indication--from a careful reading of Matthew, from Luke, and from the Church Fathers--that Jesus was born in 3 or 2 B.C.

THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM

Interpreting events as depicted in the Bible is no easy task. Although it is well known that some events in its text can be pinned on a moment in history, it takes a lot of work to separate the fact from the fiction.

But there is one significant event in the Bible that scholars have debated for centuries: The Star of Bethlehem.

Historical records and modern-day computer simulations indicate that there was a rare series of planetary groupings, also known as conjunctions, during the years 3 B.C. and 2 B.C.

RETRACING THE CONJUNCTIONS

The show started on the morning of June 12 in 3 B.C., when Venus could be sighted very close to Saturn in the eastern sky. Then there was a spectacular pairing of Venus and Jupiter on Aug. 12 in the constellation Leo, which ancient astrologers associated with the destiny of the Jews.

Between September of 3 B.C. and June of 2 B.C., Jupiter passed by the star Regulus in Leo, reversed itself and passed it again, then turned back and passed the star a third time. This was another remarkable event, since astrologers considered Jupiter the kingly planet and regarded Regulus as the “king star.”

The crowning touch came on June 17, when Jupiter seemed to approach so close to Venus that, they would have looked like a single star.

The whole sequence of events could have been enough for at least three astrologers to go to Jerusalem and ask Herod: “Where is he that is born King of the Jews, for we have seen his star in the east and are come to worship him.”

June 17 , 2 BC date doesn't match up the with Dec. 25.

REFERENCES TO DECEMBER 25th

In fact, there's no reference to December, let alone Dec. 25, in the gospels' stories of the Nativity at all. This is not meant to denigrate Dec. 25. It's just a fact.

It's very tough for us to imagine Mary and Joseph trudging to Bethlehem in anything but the bleak of mid-winter, surrounded by snow. To us, Christmas and December are inseparable. But for the first three centuries of Christianity, Christmas wasn't in December—or on the calendar anywhere.

For the church's first three centuries, if observed at all, the celebration of Christ's birth was usually lumped in with Epiphany (January 6), one of the church's earliest established feasts.

SO, WHY DECEMBER 25th ?

Western Christians first celebrated Christmas on December 25 in 336, after Emperor Constantine had declared Christianity the empire's favored religion. Eastern churches, however, held on to January 6 as the date for Christ's birth and his baptism. Most easterners eventually adopted December 25, celebrating Christ's birth on the earlier date and his baptism on the latter, but the Armenian church celebrates his birth on January 6. Incidentally, the Western church does celebrate Epiphany on January 6.

So, it was 300 years after Jesus was born, that people observed his birth in mid-winter.

The most loudly touted theory about the origins of the 25th is that it was borrowed from pagan celebrations. The Romans had their mid-winter Saturnalia festival in late December; barbarian peoples of northern and western Europe kept holidays at similar times. To top it off, in 274AD, the Roman emperor Aurelian established a feast of the birth of Sol Invictus (the Unconquered Sun), on December 25. Early Christians deliberately chose these dates to encourage the spread of Christmas and Christianity throughout the Roman world: If Christmas looked like a pagan holiday, more pagans would be open to both the holiday and the God whose birth it celebrated.

WHAT OTHER TIME OF THE YEAR?
Biblical scholars can't rule out the possibility that the Nativity occurred during the middle of the year. In fact, the biblical reference to shepherds tending their flocks at night when they hear the news of Jesus’ birth (Luke 2:8) suggests the spring during the lambing season; sheep would not be out in the fields in the dead of winter, but rather corralled in December.

SO, WHEN WAS JESUS BORN?

Probably between early April and June 17th, 2 BC.
WHEN WAS JESUS BORN? br br The Gospel of Matthew ... (show quote)
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Dec 27, 2014 13:19:41   #
War is HELL and the pain of losing a loved one remains with us forever. All gave some...Some gave all...This brave young man and his four legged pal gave their ALL for the rest of us to enjoy our freedom. RIP you two brave ones

Semper Fi
Viet Nam
'66-'67
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Dec 27, 2014 12:58:10   #
Me, I got a "goose" from my lady friend. :shock: :lol:


ka3ciz11 wrote:
And what did everyone get for Christmas that they couldn't live without?
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Dec 26, 2014 19:26:46   #
That's another story in itself ;)

Clive22 wrote:
It's as good a reason as any! Happy 2015!
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Dec 26, 2014 19:24:22   #
close...just reversed.....oops, my bad (A-G-A-I-N) :-)
bcheary wrote:
:lol: :lol: Thank you Dick. :-D :oops: or was it Harry. :mrgreen:
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Dec 26, 2014 18:38:32   #
Hey Bob, you got it right this time.....yehhhhhhh!!!!

I'm so excited I think I'll drink a "COKE" in honor of this commercial ;) :mrgreen:



bcheary wrote:
:thumbup: :thumbup: Thank you Tom. :-D
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