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Posts for: Elmerviking
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Sep 9, 2018 16:50:37   #
gwilliams6 wrote:
Most lens adapters like the MC-11 and Metabones have no optics in them, just electronics, so NO you dont need to micro adjust the focus using these open lens adapters. Only the lens adapters that use a mirror like from A-Mount to E-Mount need any microadjusting. So that means the new Canon and Nikon lens adapters will adapt their older lenses on their new mirrorless cameras WITHOUT any need for focus micro adjusting. And Sony E-Mount cameras will NOT need any micro focus adjusting with both native E-Mount and any MC-11, Metabones and like adapted lenses. Hope you understand this now. Cheers
Most lens adapters like the MC-11 and Metabones ha... (show quote)


My original question was:
Why is there a menu option “AF fine tune” if, as many reviewers say, you NEVER need it?
Now I know you MIGHT need to calibrate if you use some adapters.
That answered my question 100%!
Fact:Lenses are not 100% perfect so they need to be calibrated to optain perfect focus, EVEN on mirrorless cameras when you use some adapters! The sensor obviously need to be better designed in the future.
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Sep 9, 2018 15:46:28   #
Jrhoffman75 wrote:
See post above by amfoto1.


My conclusion:
Mirrorless cameras need micro adjustment when you have to use an adapter because the adapter has a translucent mirror which redirect the photons? To a different sensor? Makes no sense to me!
If you use original lenses for the camera you don’t need microadjustment. Maybe...just maybe the original lenses are “perfect”??
Mirror lens cameras don’t adjust for third party lenses or older brand lenses because the “shaft drive” is not that precise....hmmm
I personally will never buy a mirrorless camera because they are to small for my bigger hands. Ergonomics means a lot to me.
Interesting discussion though..😊
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Sep 9, 2018 15:01:15   #
User ID wrote:
OK. I've never seen the manual for the a7-III
but I am not limited to the "-II". I also use the
a6000 and more specifically the a6500, which
has the same combined PD+CD AF system that
is in the a7-III [while the a6000 and a7-II use
only CD AF]. So altho I'm extrapolating, it's not
as if my experience is from only one model. All
my Sonys are alike in terms of when AF micro
adjust is enabled or not, and the a6500 is truly
the smaller sensor version of the a7-III.

If I'm at all mistaken concerning the a7-III user
manual, it could be that the a7-III manual fails
to clearly explain the things I explained in the
previous post. IOW, perhaps when I suggested
reading it more carefully, there wouldn't be any
benefit in doing so, if the manual itself is faulty
in terms of its clarity.

But, OTOH, you've indicated that you read only
the short version of the manual ... soooo ? ? ?

------------------------------------------------

FYI, when reading about LAEA-X adapters and
AF: Don't let there be any confusion about the
LAEA-1 and -3. Those two do NOT involve SLR
-type AF. They do NOT have a shaft drive for
old-style Maxxum-Konica-Sony AF lenses, nor
do they have the SLT reflex mirror. The -1 and
-3 will AF only with the later lens designs that
have in-lens AF motors [NOT shaft driven]. So
there's no reason to enable micro adjustment
for use with the LAEA-1 or -3.

I actually USE these adapters. I have four of
them, two each type :-)

BTW ... sheer speculation ... if YOUR a7-III
does NOT grey out the AF micro adjust menu
option when using the default lens type [E or
FE type], that is most likely a firmware error
that will go away with an update !


`
OK. I've never seen the manual for the a7- u III /... (show quote)

What I don’t understand is that,as you say,you need microadjustment when you use an adapter. Shouldn’t the sensor perform exactly the same way? Maybe the new lenses are manufactured with better precision and therefor need no micro adjusting??
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Sep 9, 2018 14:20:42   #
User ID wrote:
There is an entirely different misunderstanding, or perhaps
just a knowledge gap, per the OP. Focus errors from phase
detection AF are only secondarily related to assembly of the
precision parts. PD focus is, by its nature, only approximate
even if the devices involved were built 100% "to blueprint".

Even if, by sheer luck, a lens and a body happen to get built
at 100% accuracy, and even if you put the two together, it is
the nature of optical images, and of phase detection AF, that
some micro adjustment may be necessary.

The micro adjust is a phase detection adjustment, and not an
adjustment for an error in flange depth tolerance. So a single
micro adjustment cannot compensate for all lenses, cuz you
are not compensating for the body, but for the lenses as well.
FWIW the body is likely to be waaaaay closer to perfect build
than most lenses.

If you don't understand phase detection, I can't fix it in this
post. But each lens's unique curvature of field will "fool" the
PD AF. SLR AF has only PD sensors.

Live view cameras ... and live view mode on SLRs ... use CD
[contrast detection] AF which is slower, but cannot be fooled.
Late model live view systems have both PD and CD systems.
The PD is virtually instantaneous, but is error-prone. So, as
soon as PD is "satisfied", CD "leaps in" to perfect the focus.

The closest I will come to explaining the inner life of PD and
CD AF systems is to say that PD is like an optical rangefinder
operating at nearly pixel level, while CD is like direct optical
focusing via a ground glass panel, like a view camera. If you
have at least a crude grasp of that analogy then you can see
why PD is faster, while CD is slower but more accurate !

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Some lenses have discernible backlash within their focusing
mechanism. This can cause error with either AF system, but
is still likely to be partially compensated by CD AF.adjustment


`
There is an entirely different misunderstanding, o... (show quote)

You are contradicting yourself! Micro adjustment is for the CD, not Pd. You adjust CD to be in focus when PD (live view) is in focus. But of course I am wrong here also..LOL
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Sep 9, 2018 14:03:08   #
User ID wrote:
From an actual user, who has actually performed
AF micro adjustment on a7-XX series cameras:

Search the manual even further and you will find
that menu options may be "greyed out" whenever
they do not apply to the total outfit in use [body,
lens, flash, adapters, etc].

To "un-grey" the AF micro adjustment option, just
attach an LAEA-2 or -4, which use SLR-type AF to
AF A-Mount [Maxxum, SLT, etc] lenses. Mounting
either of these adapters will automatically disable
the sensor-based AF of the camera body.



`
From an actual user, who has actually performed b... (show quote)

I read the short instruction manual fo Sony A7 lll, not the A7 ll.
Are you sure there is no difference?
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Sep 9, 2018 13:14:47   #
amfoto1 wrote:
No truly mirrorless camera that's using AF sensors embedded in the image sensor itself needs AF fine tuning. Think about it... Since the AF sensors and the imaging sensors are in exactly the same plane, actually are both part of the same surface, there's no way that they can be out of phase with each other. As a result, now AF fine tuning will ever be needed and the mirrorless design automatically compensates for variation in the lens or it's mounting. (Note: Lens or camera mount may need calibration to ensure they are perfectly parallel, so that the entire image area is focusing equally, but if needed that's usually accomplished during manufacture by shimming the bayonet mounts themselves.)

The Sony A7III has an AF fine tuning feature that's only necessary when using the LA-EA2 or LA-EA4 adapter, which introduces a translucent mirror to the light path (much like a DSLR) to redirect part of the image for focusing purposes, in order to allow DSLR A-mount lenses to be used on the mirrorless E-mount cameras. Ability to fine tune focus with that adapter is necessary to correct for minute variations in the adapter itself.
No truly mirrorless camera that's using AF sensors... (show quote)


Your note says exactly what I originally stated. Lenses or camera mount may need calibration because they might be slightly off due to manufacturing tolerances...I.e not producing a perfectly sharp image. I thought this could be adjusted by the AF micro adjustment in the menu. Obviously not ( I don’t have any mirrorless camera). So how do you detect this problem? I read a long article (can not Find it now) that said the correct way was to use a contrast flat target, take multiple pics and adjust until no color diffracting occurred and the pic still looked sharp. The article said that the AF system usually concentrated on one color, I think it was red, and adjusted until it was sharp. We are talking about very small differences here. That made me think that this was also the fact with mirrorless cameras. I searched Sony A7lll manual and found a setting for AF micro adjustment. That made me wonder if most reviews I read about mirrorless cameras were incorrect. Still would like to hear from an actual owner of that camera!
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Sep 9, 2018 00:22:58   #
mwsilvers wrote:
It's not a question of anything being out of spec, it more about lens manufacturing tolerances and camera body manufacturing tolerances. All finely manufactured products are built to certain tolerances. One specific copy of a lens may be perfect on one camera body and off a bit on a different copy of the same camera. Or one copy of a lens may be perfect on a body and a second copy of the same lens may be off on that body.


That was exactly what I meant...tolerances can counteract or eliminate each other. Even famous Leica lenses have different MTF and will still be within specs. I once had a Leica lens that was terrible so I had have it exchanged.That happened when Leitz opened a new factory in Canada and obviously had problem with quality control.
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Sep 8, 2018 23:38:47   #
sippyjug104 wrote:
Here's "Bud", he's a Champion also, standing on the same table with my same camera setup. This time I had the blinds open but you can see the arm on the grooming table and the lead around his neck holding him still as I take his picture.


Beautiful dog!
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Sep 8, 2018 23:34:01   #
imagemeister wrote:
Which mirrorless camera has AF micro FOCUS adjustment ? ...not trying to offend anyone ....

I have no idea who you are or what you are ....you asked for my opinion - I am giving it - and trying to HELP you .....


Check Sony Alpha A7lll instruction manual for example.
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Sep 8, 2018 23:25:33   #
sippyjug104 wrote:
This is our young male Smooth Fox Terrier, Axel (sometimes I call him Axe-hole when he misbehaves). I shot this with him setting on the grooming table with my Nikon D810 on a tripod with an 85mm f1.4 lens. The white behind him is our white vertical blinds and the brownish color is the wall. I had the grooming table setting about 2-ft. from the window for I wanted to get some soft natural light coming in through the blinds that were drawn.

I used a strobe with an umbrella which you can see from the white dot in his eye. He showed last weekend at Amana, IA where he finished his Championship. He's a tad over a year old now.

Thanks for asking me for a post of my dog for they are a dear part of our family and also bed-hogs.
This is our young male Smooth Fox Terrier, Axel (s... (show quote)



Nice dog! I am an animal over myself...had a really nice Basset Hound, my fav breed!
Now we have a cat, Lizzie, that is the sweetest cat you can imagine. Unfortunately she is hard to photograph.
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Sep 8, 2018 23:12:23   #
imagemeister wrote:
You have a great misunderstanding - especially as to physical manufacturing tolerances. No, mirrorless lenses are not perfect - but using the sensor pixels to control focus with auto- compensates seamlessly on the fly !

..


So...why do mirrorless camera menu have a setting for AF micro adjustment if it is needless?
And.no need to offend me..I am an engineer who held qualified positions at a nuclear power plant for 27 years. The last 7 years I did “root cause analysis”. My understanding of manufacturing tolerances is part of my expertise.
You owe me an apology!
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Sep 8, 2018 22:47:04   #
sippyjug104 wrote:
I agree with you and perhaps I wasn't clear in the comparison of my three different focal length macro lenses. I believe that the depth of field is dependent upon the three factors which are aperture value (f-stop), focal length (the mm of the lens) and distance to the subject from the camera's sensor (which in my case is the centerline of the camera body).

When comparing my three macro lenses, two variables must be fixed. If I set a larger F-stop number (closing the aperture) will result in a larger DOF. Using a longer focal length will result in a smaller depth of field and shooting at a closer subject to sensor distance also results in a smaller depth of field.

Like you, I love my 105mm and it is capable of shooting to infinity. If I take a picture of my dog sitting on the table using a tripod, the distance and the lens length are set. Increasing or decreasing the aperture f-stop increases or decreases the depth of field. At 105mm set at f-2.8 I can get his eye tack sharp and the background slightly past him is a soft blur. Without moving my dog or my camera, if I set the aperture to f-16 or more the background also is tack sharp.

In closing, what I meant to say was I can get the same result of depth of field with any of my three lenses by changing any two factors and to me, distance is the most important when photographing wasps and hornets as I most often do.
I agree with you and perhaps I wasn't clear in the... (show quote)


Thank you!
You are absolutely right and I appreciate your clarification. A lot of “experts” disagree, but I think a correct answer is important for rookies and technically interested persons.
I totally agree with everything you said!
Thanks again...and cheers!
/Bosse
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Sep 8, 2018 21:54:30   #
Many people claim that mirrorless cameras don’t need AF fine tuning because the image sensor is used for focusing. On a DSLR there are specific sensors used for focusing when the mirror is down. There might be a small difference in exact position of these sensors compared to the live view sensor. This can be adjusted with the default value in the fine tune settings. Let’s assume the default value is “0”...I.e. perfect. Still different lenses may need calibration. Why? My understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) is that perfect focus is where the focus plane is same as the focal length of the lens. The lens mount could be slightly out of specification...the focus plane does not reach the image sensor (front focus) or will be further away (back focus). If this didn’t happen all you would need to do is to set the default value! All lenses would then focus correctly! This is not the case! So, are mirrorless lenses perfect? I guess not. All lenses have tolerances...sometimes they are good...sometimes not so good. To me, this means that mirrorless cameras need AF fine tuning as well!
Opinions please!
/Bosse
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Sep 8, 2018 20:21:05   #
sippyjug104 wrote:
Good question. I shoot macro photography out in the fields everyday that weather permits. I have a 60mm, 105mm and a 200mm macro lenses for my Nikon D810. The depth of field is exactly the same on all three lenses when I shoot them at the same f-stop. What does make a difference is that each of the macro lenses have a different minimum focus distance. So with that said, depth of field is directly related to the f-stop aperture setting.

The 60mm is great for studio work, flowers, and subjects that you can get very close to safely. The 105mm is a good sweet-spot length for most applications and it is a favorite length of many macro photographers. The 200mm is my favorite choice for skittish insects and those that potentially may sting or bite if I get my face too close.

I found that the best f-stop for me to be between f-11 and f-16. At less than f-11 the depth of field is so shallow that only a small area of the subject is in sharp focus. Less than f-11 may be great for flat surface subjects like stamps and coins but not for 3D subjects like a live insect (unless you can do focus stacking).

If I go over f-16 lighting the subject becomes critical and even more so with a 200mm macro lens (good practice for hand-held shooting is to double the focal length as the shutter speed) for I shoot at 1/360th sec.

When I have the available light and the power of the flash, if I shoot over f-22 and up to f-32 I start to get diffraction which is inherent in a narrow aperture which causes the sharp edges of the subject to appear softened so it is counter productive to the goal of highly detailed macro photography.
Good question. I shoot macro photography out in t... (show quote)


I guess you mean all lenses you mentioned have the same DOF when you shot at the same aspect ratio?
Macro lenses would be totally worthless if DOF only depends on chosed aperture. I can not imagine a portrait with my 105 mm lens if it had a DOF of a few mm at a distance of 3 meter!
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Sep 7, 2018 23:24:57   #
RWR wrote:
You have to first be pretty close to the right distance, then fine-focus with the rail. This is best used for product type shots, flat copy, etc., whenever precise framing may be important. It’s also easier to focus with an autofocus lens, with their typical short manual focus throw.


Sorry, I don’t understand how you answer my question.
Easier to focus with an autofocus lens with their typical short focus throw??? Macro lenses have typically much longer focus throw than af lenses, which makes it easier to focus critically!
I agree that a rail might help when you use extension tubes because focusing with the lens is very limitating. Precise framing is easily solved with cropping, no need to frame the object precisely before you take the picture.
This is my opinion...As I said there is always somebody who disagree. Maybe both are right, but don’t understand each other?
( I am out of this discussion now 😊)
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