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AF fine tuning
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Sep 8, 2018 21:54:30   #
Elmerviking
 
Many people claim that mirrorless cameras don’t need AF fine tuning because the image sensor is used for focusing. On a DSLR there are specific sensors used for focusing when the mirror is down. There might be a small difference in exact position of these sensors compared to the live view sensor. This can be adjusted with the default value in the fine tune settings. Let’s assume the default value is “0”...I.e. perfect. Still different lenses may need calibration. Why? My understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) is that perfect focus is where the focus plane is same as the focal length of the lens. The lens mount could be slightly out of specification...the focus plane does not reach the image sensor (front focus) or will be further away (back focus). If this didn’t happen all you would need to do is to set the default value! All lenses would then focus correctly! This is not the case! So, are mirrorless lenses perfect? I guess not. All lenses have tolerances...sometimes they are good...sometimes not so good. To me, this means that mirrorless cameras need AF fine tuning as well!
Opinions please!
/Bosse

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Sep 8, 2018 22:50:01   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
Elmerviking wrote:
Many people claim that mirrorless cameras don’t need AF fine tuning because the image sensor is used for focusing. On a DSLR there are specific sensors used for focusing when the mirror is down. There might be a small difference in exact position of these sensors compared to the live view sensor. This can be adjusted with the default value in the fine tune settings. Let’s assume the default value is “0”...I.e. perfect. Still different lenses may need calibration. Why? My understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) is that perfect focus is where the focus plane is same as the focal length of the lens. The lens mount could be slightly out of specification...the focus plane does not reach the image sensor (front focus) or will be further away (back focus). If this didn’t happen all you would need to do is to set the default value! All lenses would then focus correctly! This is not the case! So, are mirrorless lenses perfect? I guess not. All lenses have tolerances...sometimes they are good...sometimes not so good. To me, this means that mirrorless cameras need AF fine tuning as well!
Opinions please!
/Bosse
Many people claim that mirrorless cameras don’t ne... (show quote)


You have a great misunderstanding - especially as to physical manufacturing tolerances. No, mirrorless lenses are not perfect - but using the sensor pixels to control focus with auto- compensates seamlessly on the fly !

..

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Sep 8, 2018 23:12:23   #
Elmerviking
 
imagemeister wrote:
You have a great misunderstanding - especially as to physical manufacturing tolerances. No, mirrorless lenses are not perfect - but using the sensor pixels to control focus with auto- compensates seamlessly on the fly !

..


So...why do mirrorless camera menu have a setting for AF micro adjustment if it is needless?
And.no need to offend me..I am an engineer who held qualified positions at a nuclear power plant for 27 years. The last 7 years I did “root cause analysis”. My understanding of manufacturing tolerances is part of my expertise.
You owe me an apology!

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Sep 8, 2018 23:22:31   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
Elmerviking wrote:
So...why do mirrorless camera menu have a setting for AF micro adjustment if it is needless?
And.no need to offend me..I am an engineer who held qualified positions at a nuclear power plant for 27 years. The last 7 years I did “root cause analysis”. My understanding of manufacturing tolerances is part of my expertise.
You owe me an apology!


Which mirrorless camera has AF micro FOCUS adjustment ? ...not trying to offend anyone ....

I have no idea who you are or what you are ....you asked for my opinion - I am giving it - and trying to HELP you .....

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Sep 8, 2018 23:34:01   #
Elmerviking
 
imagemeister wrote:
Which mirrorless camera has AF micro FOCUS adjustment ? ...not trying to offend anyone ....

I have no idea who you are or what you are ....you asked for my opinion - I am giving it - and trying to HELP you .....


Check Sony Alpha A7lll instruction manual for example.

Reply
Sep 9, 2018 00:11:07   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
Elmerviking wrote:
Many people claim that mirrorless cameras don’t need AF fine tuning because the image sensor is used for focusing. On a DSLR there are specific sensors used for focusing when the mirror is down. There might be a small difference in exact position of these sensors compared to the live view sensor. This can be adjusted with the default value in the fine tune settings. Let’s assume the default value is “0”...I.e. perfect. Still different lenses may need calibration. Why? My understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) is that perfect focus is where the focus plane is same as the focal length of the lens. The lens mount could be slightly out of specification...the focus plane does not reach the image sensor (front focus) or will be further away (back focus). If this didn’t happen all you would need to do is to set the default value! All lenses would then focus correctly! This is not the case! So, are mirrorless lenses perfect? I guess not. All lenses have tolerances...sometimes they are good...sometimes not so good. To me, this means that mirrorless cameras need AF fine tuning as well!
Opinions please!
/Bosse
Many people claim that mirrorless cameras don’t ne... (show quote)


It's not a question of anything being out of spec, it more about lens manufacturing tolerances and camera body manufacturing tolerances. All finely manufactured products are built to certain tolerances. One specific copy of a lens may be perfect on one camera body and off a bit on a different copy of the same camera. Or one copy of a lens may be perfect on a body and a second copy of the same lens may be off on that body.

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Sep 9, 2018 00:22:58   #
Elmerviking
 
mwsilvers wrote:
It's not a question of anything being out of spec, it more about lens manufacturing tolerances and camera body manufacturing tolerances. All finely manufactured products are built to certain tolerances. One specific copy of a lens may be perfect on one camera body and off a bit on a different copy of the same camera. Or one copy of a lens may be perfect on a body and a second copy of the same lens may be off on that body.


That was exactly what I meant...tolerances can counteract or eliminate each other. Even famous Leica lenses have different MTF and will still be within specs. I once had a Leica lens that was terrible so I had have it exchanged.That happened when Leitz opened a new factory in Canada and obviously had problem with quality control.

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Sep 9, 2018 07:27:34   #
Jrhoffman75 Loc: Conway, New Hampshire
 
This thread might help:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3895700

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Sep 9, 2018 08:59:01   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
Elmerviking wrote:
Check Sony Alpha A7lll instruction manual for example.


Are you sure you read that section of the manual in detail. I believe what you are referring to only applies when using the LA-EA4 or similar adapter.

---

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Sep 9, 2018 12:16:23   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
No truly mirrorless camera that's using AF sensors embedded in the image sensor itself needs AF fine tuning. Think about it... Since the AF sensors and the imaging sensors are in exactly the same plane, actually are both part of the same surface, there's no way that they can be out of phase with each other. As a result, now AF fine tuning will ever be needed and the mirrorless design automatically compensates for variation in the lens or it's mounting. (Note: Lens or camera mount may need calibration to ensure they are perfectly parallel, so that the entire image area is focusing equally, but if needed that's usually accomplished during manufacture by shimming the bayonet mounts themselves.)

The Sony A7III has an AF fine tuning feature that's only necessary when using the LA-EA2 or LA-EA4 adapter, which introduces a translucent mirror to the light path (much like a DSLR) to redirect part of the image for focusing purposes, in order to allow DSLR A-mount lenses to be used on the mirrorless E-mount cameras. Ability to fine tune focus with that adapter is necessary to correct for minute variations in the adapter itself.

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Sep 9, 2018 12:59:47   #
User ID
 
imagemeister wrote:


You have a great misunderstanding - especially as to physical
manufacturing tolerances. No, mirrorless lenses are not perfect -
but using the sensor pixels to control focus with auto- compensates
seamlessly on the fly !

..


There is an entirely different misunderstanding, or perhaps
just a knowledge gap, per the OP. Focus errors from phase
detection AF are only secondarily related to assembly of the
precision parts. PD focus is, by its nature, only approximate
even if the devices involved were built 100% "to blueprint".

Even if, by sheer luck, a lens and a body happen to get built
at 100% accuracy, and even if you put the two together, it is
the nature of optical images, and of phase detection AF, that
some micro adjustment may be necessary.

The micro adjust is a phase detection adjustment, and not an
adjustment for an error in flange depth tolerance. So a single
micro adjustment cannot compensate for all lenses, cuz you
are not compensating for the body, but for the lenses as well.
FWIW the body is likely to be waaaaay closer to perfect build
than most lenses.

If you don't understand phase detection, I can't fix it in this
post. But each lens's unique curvature of field will "fool" the
PD AF. SLR AF has only PD sensors.

Live view cameras ... and live view mode on SLRs ... use CD
[contrast detection] AF which is slower, but cannot be fooled.
Late model live view systems have both PD and CD systems.
The PD is virtually instantaneous, but is error-prone. So, as
soon as PD is "satisfied", CD "leaps in" to perfect the focus.

The closest I will come to explaining the inner life of PD and
CD AF systems is to say that PD is like an optical rangefinder
operating at nearly pixel level, while CD is like direct optical
focusing via a ground glass panel, like a view camera. If you
have at least a crude grasp of that analogy then you can see
why PD is faster, while CD is slower but more accurate !

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Some lenses have discernible backlash within their focusing
mechanism. This can cause error with either AF system, but
is still likely to be partially compensated by CD AF.


`

Reply
 
 
Sep 9, 2018 13:14:47   #
Elmerviking
 
amfoto1 wrote:
No truly mirrorless camera that's using AF sensors embedded in the image sensor itself needs AF fine tuning. Think about it... Since the AF sensors and the imaging sensors are in exactly the same plane, actually are both part of the same surface, there's no way that they can be out of phase with each other. As a result, now AF fine tuning will ever be needed and the mirrorless design automatically compensates for variation in the lens or it's mounting. (Note: Lens or camera mount may need calibration to ensure they are perfectly parallel, so that the entire image area is focusing equally, but if needed that's usually accomplished during manufacture by shimming the bayonet mounts themselves.)

The Sony A7III has an AF fine tuning feature that's only necessary when using the LA-EA2 or LA-EA4 adapter, which introduces a translucent mirror to the light path (much like a DSLR) to redirect part of the image for focusing purposes, in order to allow DSLR A-mount lenses to be used on the mirrorless E-mount cameras. Ability to fine tune focus with that adapter is necessary to correct for minute variations in the adapter itself.
No truly mirrorless camera that's using AF sensors... (show quote)


Your note says exactly what I originally stated. Lenses or camera mount may need calibration because they might be slightly off due to manufacturing tolerances...I.e not producing a perfectly sharp image. I thought this could be adjusted by the AF micro adjustment in the menu. Obviously not ( I don’t have any mirrorless camera). So how do you detect this problem? I read a long article (can not Find it now) that said the correct way was to use a contrast flat target, take multiple pics and adjust until no color diffracting occurred and the pic still looked sharp. The article said that the AF system usually concentrated on one color, I think it was red, and adjusted until it was sharp. We are talking about very small differences here. That made me think that this was also the fact with mirrorless cameras. I searched Sony A7lll manual and found a setting for AF micro adjustment. That made me wonder if most reviews I read about mirrorless cameras were incorrect. Still would like to hear from an actual owner of that camera!

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Sep 9, 2018 13:48:16   #
User ID
 
Elmerviking wrote:

........................ I searched Sony A7lll manual
and found a setting for AF micro adjustment. That
made me wonder if most reviews I read about
mirrorless cameras were incorrect. Still would like
to hear from an actual owner of that camera!


From an actual user, who has actually performed
AF micro adjustment on a7-XX series cameras:

Search the manual even further and you will find
that menu options will be "greyed out" whenever
they do not apply to the total outfit in use [body,
lens, flash, adapters, etc].

To "un-grey" the AF micro adjustment option, just
attach an LAEA-2 or -4, which use SLR-type AF to
AF A-Mount [Maxxum, SLT, etc] lenses. Mounting
either of these adapters will automatically disable
the sensor-based AF of the camera body.



`

Reply
Sep 9, 2018 14:03:08   #
Elmerviking
 
User ID wrote:
From an actual user, who has actually performed
AF micro adjustment on a7-XX series cameras:

Search the manual even further and you will find
that menu options may be "greyed out" whenever
they do not apply to the total outfit in use [body,
lens, flash, adapters, etc].

To "un-grey" the AF micro adjustment option, just
attach an LAEA-2 or -4, which use SLR-type AF to
AF A-Mount [Maxxum, SLT, etc] lenses. Mounting
either of these adapters will automatically disable
the sensor-based AF of the camera body.



`
From an actual user, who has actually performed b... (show quote)

I read the short instruction manual fo Sony A7 lll, not the A7 ll.
Are you sure there is no difference?

Reply
Sep 9, 2018 14:20:42   #
Elmerviking
 
User ID wrote:
There is an entirely different misunderstanding, or perhaps
just a knowledge gap, per the OP. Focus errors from phase
detection AF are only secondarily related to assembly of the
precision parts. PD focus is, by its nature, only approximate
even if the devices involved were built 100% "to blueprint".

Even if, by sheer luck, a lens and a body happen to get built
at 100% accuracy, and even if you put the two together, it is
the nature of optical images, and of phase detection AF, that
some micro adjustment may be necessary.

The micro adjust is a phase detection adjustment, and not an
adjustment for an error in flange depth tolerance. So a single
micro adjustment cannot compensate for all lenses, cuz you
are not compensating for the body, but for the lenses as well.
FWIW the body is likely to be waaaaay closer to perfect build
than most lenses.

If you don't understand phase detection, I can't fix it in this
post. But each lens's unique curvature of field will "fool" the
PD AF. SLR AF has only PD sensors.

Live view cameras ... and live view mode on SLRs ... use CD
[contrast detection] AF which is slower, but cannot be fooled.
Late model live view systems have both PD and CD systems.
The PD is virtually instantaneous, but is error-prone. So, as
soon as PD is "satisfied", CD "leaps in" to perfect the focus.

The closest I will come to explaining the inner life of PD and
CD AF systems is to say that PD is like an optical rangefinder
operating at nearly pixel level, while CD is like direct optical
focusing via a ground glass panel, like a view camera. If you
have at least a crude grasp of that analogy then you can see
why PD is faster, while CD is slower but more accurate !

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Some lenses have discernible backlash within their focusing
mechanism. This can cause error with either AF system, but
is still likely to be partially compensated by CD AF.adjustment


`
There is an entirely different misunderstanding, o... (show quote)

You are contradicting yourself! Micro adjustment is for the CD, not Pd. You adjust CD to be in focus when PD (live view) is in focus. But of course I am wrong here also..LOL

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