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Boeing 737 Max 8 Aircraft Crashes In Ethiopia
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Mar 12, 2019 14:06:24   #
AirWalter Loc: Tipp City, Ohio
 
Blaster34 wrote:
Is that what the FDR and voice recorders found?



I believe the problem was already known. That is why it was suggested that that particular system that causes a plane to automatically go nose down to correct a pending stall kicks in be turned off during takeoff.

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Mar 12, 2019 14:07:56   #
AirWalter Loc: Tipp City, Ohio
 
Bmarsh wrote:
Boeing added some software to their MAX which feeds in down trim based on airspeed and attitude. The change was made due a difference in engine weight on the MAX. But they DID NOT put the information in their manuals or train the crew how to handle problems due to the new system. And if a sensor like airspeed is faulty, the software can put in downward trim that the pilot is not suspecting.

Expect Boeing to take a BIG HIT on this one.



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Mar 12, 2019 14:17:04   #
AirWalter Loc: Tipp City, Ohio
 
Blaster34 wrote:
I won't expect anything until the NTSB has analyzed both FDR's and CVR's and provides the aviation industry with the results....


If you can believe the NTSB! They hid a lot of info about TWA 800. I still believe that plane was accidentally shot down by our navy during a drill with a missile. I was watching tv when that happened and there was an emergency interruption on one of the major networks and they broadcast a captured broadcast over the airwaves. You could hear someone on a ship saying, "My God, we just shot down an airliner". That broadcast only played once and was never mentioned again by that network. It was immediately hushed up!

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Mar 12, 2019 14:22:03   #
AirWalter Loc: Tipp City, Ohio
 
Bmarsh wrote:
Rightfully so, but it was only after the Oct crash that Boeing revealed the additional “feature”.

From an article about the Lion Air crash:

One of the victims' family are suing Boeing, and accuse the aircraft manufacturer of failing to inform the pilots of the new anti-stalling feature on its 737 Max plane system that could "push the nose down unexpectedly".

Boeing has said that "the 737 Max is as safe as any airplane that has ever flown in the skies" and that "the appropriate procedure to address unintended horizontal stabiliser movement" is contained in the relevant flight manuals.

The correct procedures appeared to have been followed in the Denpasar flight before the crash, it said.

However, Nurcahyo Utomo told the BBC: "We haven't found the information in the manual relevant to the new feature to the 737- MAX, related to the feature for the stall prevention system."

If the automatic system kicked in and "the pilot didn't know what was happening", there was a risk it would confuse the pilots, he added.
Rightfully so, but it was only after the Oct crash... (show quote)


I read somewhere that the info about the system you are referring to was not in the original manual because the correction system was added after complaints by some test pilots and the instructions about how to handle the problem were put out in an addendum to the manual.

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Mar 12, 2019 15:24:47   #
jerrylh Loc: Texas
 
American and SouthWest are not grounding their planes because there is no factual evidence that it is a flaw in the aircraft. I know several 737 pilots and they believe it has to do with pilot training.
I'm an old pilot with over 3,000 hours and have been involved in training some pilots from other countries. Some are attentive to the training and others do not pay attention to the training and just look at it as something they are being forced to do. Pilots from one country had many accidents, some fatal because they did not pay attention. Even some here in the US felt their mandatory "type" training was a waste of time. I had one that had a very high superego and refused to pay attention to the ground school before we flew. I allowed him to make a mistake that shut off the engine at about 7,000 feet. I got his attention then!!! I told him to keep up his airspeed while we look for a place to land. (we were flying HIS airplane) Then I asked if he would like to try and restart the engine. YES!!!! It was easy to do if you knew how. I had him do it and it started right up. I had his attention. Several years later I heard that he bought an aerobatic plane and died in it while flying inverted, pulled it into the ground!

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Mar 12, 2019 15:32:51   #
mas24 Loc: Southern CA
 
The USA stands alone, in not grounding the Boeing 737 Max 8 Aircraft. Is it because Boeing is an American Made aircraft? Or, are American pilots just more experienced, and able to overcome any problems with that aircraft? The FAA also approves this decision. Southwest and American Airlines use the 737 Max 8 Aircraft. If you are flying on these Airlines in the future. You can contact either of them, to see which aircraft will be provided for your flight.

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Mar 12, 2019 15:34:44   #
jkm757 Loc: San Diego, Ca.
 
jeep_daddy wrote:
It's probably a terrorist attack that caused it to go down. They don't have as much security in Africa as they do here and many other 1st world countries.

Of course, it could be that I just finished a series on TV about a laptop bomb that brought down a 737 in the Republic of Congo.


Since no terrorist group has claimed responsibility, I'm thinking terrorist are not involved.

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Mar 12, 2019 15:36:51   #
mas24 Loc: Southern CA
 
Experience and skill are necessary to be a competent pilot. Remember JFK Jr.

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Mar 12, 2019 17:46:41   #
Harry0 Loc: Gardena, Cal
 
Another issue brought up occasionally is maintenance. Or lack of.
A lot of preventative maintenance procedures are "deferred" until problems are reported.
Many airlines get their birds "serviced" at "offshore" locations. Cheaper, no liability for 3rd parties.
Stateside regulations are stricter than offshore facilities, which may be less than this Corps.
I have a BIL that flies for Spirit
Google "airline mechanics maintenance concerns"

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Mar 12, 2019 20:01:24   #
aphelps Loc: Central Ohio
 
Blaster34 wrote:
I won't expect anything until the NTSB has analyzed both FDR's and CVR's and provides the aviation industry with the results....


Just heard that Ethiopian Air will be sending cvr and fdr to another country for analysis. Not the US. Not to Boeing? What is going on?

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Mar 12, 2019 20:09:13   #
Blaster34 Loc: Florida Treasure Coast
 
aphelps wrote:
Just heard that Ethiopian Air will be sending cvr and fdr to another country for analysis. Not the US. Not to Boeing? What is going on?



Regardless, NTSB has a 4 member team on site and I'm sure they'll monitor both devices. However, those devices should come to where the experts exist, NTSB, Washington DC.

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Mar 12, 2019 22:06:25   #
catgirl Loc: las vegas
 
Canonuser wrote:
My grandson flies Boeing 737s and being concerned, I wrote to him following the latest crash. Here is a relevant part of his response to me:
“From what I’ve read, it all sounds very similar to the lion air accident. At ***** we do have some of these aircraft, although I’m yet to fly one. After the lion air accident, we were issued with guidance on how to deal with unreliable airspeed and elevator trim problems. Whether this info also got through to the Ethiopian pilots, I don’t know. At ****** we have been reassured that if the correct actions are taken, it is a very manageable problem and not a safety threat. I’m sure as an airline we’ll receive more information in the coming days but rest assured, we’ll only fly the aircraft if it’s safe.”
My grandson flies Boeing 737s and being concerned,... (show quote)


my son-in-law also pilots the 737's for United

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Mar 12, 2019 23:30:23   #
Floyd R Turbo Loc: Kingwood, TX
 
Two American pilots flying 737 Max' have experienced nose down events when turning on the autopilot. The planes continued to climb once autopilot was turned off. Sounds like a programming glitch IMO.

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Mar 13, 2019 16:27:56   #
mas24 Loc: Southern CA
 
President Trump has grounded today, the 737 Max 8. Until further notice? Disagreeing with FAA. Another fatal accident as the previous two, in the span of weeks or months, would surely bring 100% attention by Boeing Aircraft Corporation. Their Stocks have already fallen.

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Mar 16, 2019 07:36:24   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
tommystrat wrote:
That's one of the biggest problems our society faces today - not one person has all the facts concerning these horrific accidents, but everyone "knows" what caused them. They then espouse their pet theories and start caustic arguments about who is "right" when they have no basis in fact for anything they are arguing.

The fundamental premise of investigations of this type is, "No coincidences, no speculation - just evidence." And collecting this evidence will take time - lots of it...
That's one of the biggest problems our society fac... (show quote)


It's human nature to look for what caused a problem and find a solution. If we rely on Boeing for answers, we would have a long wait. "Pilot error" is an easy out for the airlines, but that cause is often mis-applied. Two of the same model plane going down in the same circumstances is not a coincidence, it's evidence.

By now, we know that Boeing realized there was a problem with their software, but they were slow to react. Add to that the government shutdown that delayed correcting the problem, and we have a bureaucratic screw-up that cost lives, and not for the first time.

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