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Lost Dutchman State Park now requires $$$ and Permit for Commercial Photography
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Feb 6, 2019 14:59:11   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
chrissybabe wrote:
Welcome to America - land of the free !

This document is very badly written and open to many interpretations.
Let me give you an example. So you arrive at the park with your girlfriend who happens to be Peruvian and is wearing their national dress. You wander around a bit enjoying the flowers and scenery. She says how about taking my picture with the flowers showing behind me so you do obviously with no intent of ever selling anything. You have just enabled 4 things that invoke a permit - "Any other posed photography session that uses a park location as a backdrop for pictures and/or that requires special attire"
1. Posed photography (this would include taking selfies)
2. Uses a park location
3. Uses a park location as a backdrop
4. Took photographs of someone wearing special attire
So the document is extremely badly worded but is very clear. It may not have been intended to be so badly written but even lawyers make mistakes (sometimes deliberately).
That single sentence kills all personal, not for profit photography. I guess a court case would resolve the meaning of "posed".
Making you pay to photograph something that you, as a citizen, own is beyond belief but that is what they have done. Any sort of commercial use is different although even that might be questionable. How about if you wanted a photograph of a 'mountain daisy' to include in a book documenting the States flowers. Said book being sold rather than given away. And maybe even sold through the parks shop. Here you are screwed also since it is a commercial use.
Soon you will be obliged to buy an air meter on entering the park so you can be charged for the amount of "their (really yours)" air you breath.
Only in America !
Welcome to America - land of the free ! br br Thi... (show quote)


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Feb 6, 2019 15:15:16   #
PGHphoto Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
flashgordonbrown wrote:
It depends on what their definition of "commercial photography" is. If you take a picture and sell copies of it as art, that isn't generally referred to as commercial photography. The general description of commercial photography is photos taken to promote a product or service. Sometimes wedding or portrait photographers are required to get a permit to photograph their subjects in public parks and venues. Also, the use of a tripod sometimes triggers the need for a permit. Sometimes, people with some small amount of authority get over zealous in their enforcement tactics and exceed the bounds of their authority. You have to decide how important it is to take your photos or to make a point.
It depends on what their definition of "comme... (show quote)


Only problem with your scenario is the OP agreed that the objective was commercial. At that point, there is agreement on if the document is binding by assertion of BOTH sides.

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Feb 6, 2019 15:37:38   #
PGHphoto Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
chrissybabe wrote:
Welcome to America - land of the free !

This document is very badly written and open to many interpretations.
Let me give you an example. So you arrive at the park with your girlfriend who happens to be Peruvian and is wearing their national dress. You wander around a bit enjoying the flowers and scenery. She says how about taking my picture with the flowers showing behind me so you do obviously with no intent of ever selling anything. You have just enabled 4 things that invoke a permit - "Any other posed photography session that uses a park location as a backdrop for pictures and/or that requires special attire"
1. Posed photography (this would include taking selfies)
2. Uses a park location
3. Uses a park location as a backdrop
4. Took photographs of someone wearing special attire
So the document is extremely badly worded but is very clear. It may not have been intended to be so badly written but even lawyers make mistakes (sometimes deliberately).
That single sentence kills all personal, not for profit photography. I guess a court case would resolve the meaning of "posed".
Making you pay to photograph something that you, as a citizen, own is beyond belief but that is what they have done. Any sort of commercial use is different although even that might be questionable. How about if you wanted a photograph of a 'mountain daisy' to include in a book documenting the States flowers. Said book being sold rather than given away. And maybe even sold through the parks shop. Here you are screwed also since it is a commercial use.
Soon you will be obliged to buy an air meter on entering the park so you can be charged for the amount of "their (really yours)" air you breath.
Only in America !
Welcome to America - land of the free ! br br Thi... (show quote)


Apparently in New Zealand too ! https://filtergrade.com/permits-commercial-photography-filming/ Although for less than 11 people involved in the activity the permit is free - but still required. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the motives of the parks - just saying willful disregard of the rules just because somebody disagrees doesn't make it right or appropriate.

That's how the U.S. got so screwed up through the so-called "Social Justice Warriors" - They maintain they don't have to follow rules they deem are 'wrong' just because they say so. Yell louder and that gives you the 'right' to do what you want regardless of how many people are adversely affected. If you don't like the rules then you should seek to change them through appropriate channels. Sorry - putting soapbox away now.

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Feb 6, 2019 16:39:41   #
Indiana Loc: Huntington, Indiana
 
jearlwebb wrote:
Howdy.
Yesterday I went online to get the phone number for LDSP to inquire if anything was in blossom yet before I took the 1 hour drive to get there. When I went to their website I noticed that they now require both an approved permit and $$$ to photograph for commercial usage.
I called the park and was told to talk to the Park Ranger in person, so I did.
I was told the min. cost would be $50.00 for 1 hour.
I told the Ranger no thank you, she did suggest an area I was not aware of that borders the State Park.
Take a right out of the Park and about 5 minutes on the right you will come to a road called "First Water".
It is a dirt road with MANY dips and pot holes, but doable just drive slow!
There is no cost as far as I could see, had great views of and surrounding landscape of Superstition Mountains.
BTW...some flowers are starting to bloom.
Howdy. br Yesterday I went online to get the phone... (show quote)

I am curious as to what she might have said if you proclaimed yourself an amateur, rather than their classification of a commercial photographer. I really wish this would of happened to me...because I'm a language and research guy, and I would have created issues for someone over definitions and classifications. Just my thoughts.

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Feb 6, 2019 16:53:13   #
CamB Loc: Juneau, Alaska
 
I lead Photography Tours in the Tongass National Forest. For each trail or area I use we (the company I work for) need permits. These permits are based on number of guests and include lots of rules we have to follow. We are given total number of guests permitted on each trail between certain dates. We submit reports every week on where we stand on our usage. Of course we have to be insured. Near the end of the season we may be reaching our limits on a trail or area and then try to shift our groups to other permitted trails. There are many rules. We can't block trails. We can set up tripods if there is room but we can't make casual users wait or be inconvenienced. This is just one rule. There are many and they are no joke. Every time we are discovered 'screwing up' it goes in 'the book' and may count against us the next year when the permits come up. At the same time though, we get special bonuses. When the yearly bear closures go into effect (around salmon spawning streams) our groups alone are allowed into those areas. All the guides get special training for bears and rules and are required, in our permits, to intervene when our guests or anyone is seen doing something not cool. The pictures I take on the tours, of bears and mushrooms and salmon and glaciers, I am allowed to sell at the gallery I work with, and our company can use them in our advertising.
The point is that not all the permitting is bad, and some, like ours, actually protects the areas for the general public too, not even counting how much money we give to the Forest Service.

jearlwebb wrote:
Howdy.
Yesterday I went online to get the phone number for LDSP to inquire if anything was in blossom yet before I took the 1 hour drive to get there. When I went to their website I noticed that they now require both an approved permit and $$$ to photograph for commercial usage.
I called the park and was told to talk to the Park Ranger in person, so I did.
I was told the min. cost would be $50.00 for 1 hour.
I told the Ranger no thank you, she did suggest an area I was not aware of that borders the State Park.
Take a right out of the Park and about 5 minutes on the right you will come to a road called "First Water".
It is a dirt road with MANY dips and pot holes, but doable just drive slow!
There is no cost as far as I could see, had great views of and surrounding landscape of Superstition Mountains.
BTW...some flowers are starting to bloom.
Howdy. br Yesterday I went online to get the phone... (show quote)

Reply
Feb 6, 2019 17:27:34   #
rockdog Loc: Berkeley, Ca.
 
CamB wrote:
I lead Photography Tours in the Tongass National Forest. For each trail or area I use we (the company I work for) need permits. These permits are based on number of guests and include lots of rules we have to follow. We are given total number of guests permitted on each trail between certain dates. We submit reports every week on where we stand on our usage. Of course we have to be insured. Near the end of the season we may be reaching our limits on a trail or area and then try to shift our groups to other permitted trails. There are many rules. We can't block trails. We can set up tripods if there is room but we can't make casual users wait or be inconvenienced. This is just one rule. There are many and they are no joke. Every time we are discovered 'screwing up' it goes in 'the book' and may count against us the next year when the permits come up. At the same time though, we get special bonuses. When the yearly bear closures go into effect (around salmon spawning streams) our groups alone are allowed into those areas. All the guides get special training for bears and rules and are required, in our permits, to intervene when our guests or anyone is seen doing something not cool. The pictures I take on the tours, of bears and mushrooms and salmon and glaciers, I am allowed to sell at the gallery I work with, and our company can use them in our advertising.
The point is that not all the permitting is bad, and some, like ours, actually protects the areas for the general public too, not even counting how much money we give to the Forest Service.
I lead Photography Tours in the Tongass National F... (show quote)


Thank you for a substantive contribution to this thread!

Reply
Feb 6, 2019 18:29:32   #
dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho
 
Dikdik wrote:
Then why the regulation, and, stipulated fine?

Dik


As I think Paul tried to point out to you, the rule is for photographers who come toting tons of professional gear to take photos of models, weddings, flowers and so on. I do not think the rule was written to limit me or anybody else from going to that area just to take family photographs, photos of flowers, the landscape or other items of interest. Sometimes people simply need to stand up for what they think is correct. As a former LEO I do not advocate breaking the law. But there is also room in many laws to separate the actual professional photographers from those in the situations outlined above. I personally do not think the photos I would take fall under this rule. If you do and if you enjoy paying $50.00 needlessly then you knock yourself out reaching for your wallet. Not me. If a ranger came by and asked what I was doing I would explain I was a tourist taking photos for my personal use. I doubt he would cite me. But I sure would not be offering to pay up front. You do as you see best for you.

Dennis

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Feb 6, 2019 18:31:08   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
jearlwebb wrote:
Howdy.
Yesterday I went online to get the phone number for LDSP to inquire if anything was in blossom yet before I took the 1 hour drive to get there. When I went to their website I noticed that they now require both an approved permit and $$$ to photograph for commercial usage.
I called the park and was told to talk to the Park Ranger in person, so I did.
I was told the min. cost would be $50.00 for 1 hour.
I told the Ranger no thank you, she did suggest an area I was not aware of that borders the State Park.
Take a right out of the Park and about 5 minutes on the right you will come to a road called "First Water".
It is a dirt road with MANY dips and pot holes, but doable just drive slow!
There is no cost as far as I could see, had great views of and surrounding landscape of Superstition Mountains.
BTW...some flowers are starting to bloom.
Howdy. br Yesterday I went online to get the phone... (show quote)


You are planning to do COMMERCIAL photography? Most places charge a fee for that.

Reply
Feb 6, 2019 18:47:32   #
dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho
 
CamB wrote:
I lead Photography Tours in the Tongass National Forest. For each trail or area I use we (the company I work for) need permits. These permits are based on number of guests and include lots of rules we have to follow. We are given total number of guests permitted on each trail between certain dates. We submit reports every week on where we stand on our usage. Of course we have to be insured. Near the end of the season we may be reaching our limits on a trail or area and then try to shift our groups to other permitted trails. There are many rules. We can't block trails. We can set up tripods if there is room but we can't make casual users wait or be inconvenienced. This is just one rule. There are many and they are no joke. Every time we are discovered 'screwing up' it goes in 'the book' and may count against us the next year when the permits come up. At the same time though, we get special bonuses. When the yearly bear closures go into effect (around salmon spawning streams) our groups alone are allowed into those areas. All the guides get special training for bears and rules and are required, in our permits, to intervene when our guests or anyone is seen doing something not cool. The pictures I take on the tours, of bears and mushrooms and salmon and glaciers, I am allowed to sell at the gallery I work with, and our company can use them in our advertising.
The point is that not all the permitting is bad, and some, like ours, actually protects the areas for the general public too, not even counting how much money we give to the Forest Service.
I lead Photography Tours in the Tongass National F... (show quote)


With respect sir, I don't think what you do while leading groups is entirely what we are talking about in this thread. I think everyone realizes that you and your company leading tours is already mentioned in the rules that the OP is talking about. I have absolutely no problem with someone charging money for you or your group to go into the area to photograph.

But can you point out to us what the circumstances would be if just me and my wife were to go into the very same area, by our selves to take photos, even with the use of a tripod. That is what we are talking about. If I later decide to sell a few of the photos I think I am still on safe ground and within the rules of the area the OP mentioned.

Good luck in your endeavors,

Dennis

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Feb 6, 2019 22:00:34   #
billbarcus Loc: IPNW
 
Absolute Highway Robbery!!!

Charging to snap photos in a state park or on any state or federal lands is a total, money-scamming sham-Rip Off. Don't fall for it. The Tonto Natl. Forest once told me I needed a commercial permit to photograph on the forest. I reused to pay and shot for years, and then later when I went to work for the B......s I continued to shoot while they squirmed in their seats and said nothing. Nobody should never pay a red cent to pay to photograph on any public lands ... and, you shouldn't either!

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Feb 7, 2019 01:22:49   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
It would appear she is unfamiliar with the language and stated (published) purpose of the permit requirements. Have a printed copy of the PDF and don't set up your tripod anywhere near the parking lot or high-use trails. You'll have the situation covered if a ranger later arrives while you're shooting. Probably don't drive up to the entrance in a van covered with advertising of a film company nor a backseat full of lighting and three models ...

"Reserve" as referenced twice in just this small portion of the document would seem the key point. If you're not blocking / limiting any use of the park by any other citizen, you can't be characterized as reserving a portion of the park for your own use.
It would appear she is unfamiliar with the languag... (show quote)


Good analysis!

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