Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Check out Street Photography section of our forum.
Main Photography Discussion
Artist vs Craftsman
Page <<first <prev 6 of 9 next> last>>
Feb 2, 2019 12:52:09   #
traderjohn Loc: New York City
 
artBob wrote:
Having taught over 6,000 people art, from high schoolers through college students to the elderly, it is evident that some "have it" and some don't. Doesn't mean too much, as a person working hard within the bounds of his talents and his appropriate profession will likely succeed.
It is sad to see an extremely talented person who is too lazy to achieve much or a modestly talented person who dreams of succeeding at a level unobtainable. Play within your game, and you will enjoy life and succeed.
Having taught over 6,000 people art, from high sch... (show quote)

If the person is a "modestly talented person who dreams of succeeding at a level unobtainable. Play within your game, and you will enjoy life" How can this person enjoy life if he/she is modestly talented and wants the top of the heap. That person is doomed. Is his game mediocrity? Where is the enjoyment in their life?

Reply
Feb 2, 2019 14:58:18   #
KiheiVillages
 
schaut wrote:
I started out with very little, and inexpensive equipment. I do not even now have lots of money to spend on expensive "up to speed" lenses or gadgets. When i was a beginner, i accomplished things with my little Oly compact and cardboard tubes, or reversing lenses, or even using rocks and leaves to steady my camera to get a shot! Had a number of compliments that encouraged me at the time to forge onward and upward, and i appreciate that very much. Most of them were "you took THIS shot with THAT camera?" Then i bought a few things that made it so i wouldn't HAVE to use a cardboard tube, rocks, glue, chewing gum, etc. Very convenient! To make a long story short, even though some of these saved me work, i missed being creative with my "inferior" equipment. No, i didn't go back from my 7D and 50D to the little Oly compact i used at the first, but there's still something that turns me on about having to be creative with what i'm using, i.e. going ouside the bounds or limits of what i'm presently using to create good images. I think that involves "artistry" to a degree; the ability to take what you have and create something that some think you shouldn't be able to, or to create a mistake into something beautiful!
If i were working with another medium such as oil paints or clay, i would be able to use my hands to manipulate my "mistakes" into beauty. A camera and photo equipment is more difficult that way because you can't mold it or shove it around unless you're into Photoshop heavily. That being said, there are a lot of thin lines of definition between art and craft. I don't want to destroy creativity by buying so much equipment that it does everything for me and destroys creativity. Keeping your sense of creativity without being overcome by technical buzz is a SKILL in itself!
We all have to find our own definitions and boundaries as to whether and to what degree we want to be an artist or craftsman. There are some artists who don't have the gift of working with craftsmans tools, and there are some craftsmen who are unable to work outside a straight line. It's good to be able to do some of both to accomplish good photography. Some do their own printing or mounting, etc., some don't. A craftsman might get into printing more than some one who wants or needs to be an artist. Both have their talents and gifts.
I could go on with this for a very long time, but i will wrap it up with the statement that artistry and craftsmanship are subjective to the individual. There is a variety of balances according to you and your preferences. Its one of those subjects with which we could fill the ocean! For ME, the term "artistry" evokes a thought of being creative or making something new (inventive?), and craftsman gives me the implied meaning of producing the created thing to (physical) perfection for a use. (A creative craftsman would be one who creates a new use for an old machine, or makes it do what it does better). The artist may not look for immediate perfection, but for the expression. The craftsman will look for the perfection and a way to do it efficiently!
So get out there, CREATE, and perfect your CRAFT!!
I started out with very little, and inexpensive eq... (show quote)


I am simply referring to craftsman, as being someone who is familiar with the tools they use to make art. And uses them at ease, being free in artistically creating in what ever medium they use.
This person has an advantage over an artist who is unfamiliar with the tools of their medium, such as camera, pottery wheel, oil paints etc. Most all of the notable artists in history, in every field and medium, knew their craft well.

Reply
Feb 2, 2019 16:03:38   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
Perhaps I have a different conception of the term "Artist". I always think of it as a title only bestowed on the very best in their field. Perhaps this is something in my upbringing.

My grandfather was an accomplished and talented musician. He played the violin and many other string instruments. In his native Russia, he played in a symphony orchestra but when he immigrated the United States, times were difficult, he took a job as a laborer and seriously injured his hands. He never again played professionally but always played at family occasions and made sure all the kids had music lessons.

Grandpa always took me to concerts, listened to all kinds and styles of music on radio and TV and loved to hear stereo recordings. He would always critique the musicians- he was usually kind. He would remark that this guy or gal was a "good player, a good fiddler, or a fine musician" When, however, he watched or listened to a virtuoso- a grandmaster- he would say "Shooosh! Listen quietly" and say "this is an "ARTIST"!

Years later, when I began to attend open print judging session, I would listen to the critiques and judges would say "nice shot, good picture, not bad" and make their remarks but occasionally the words "this is the work of an artist" would arise.

Sometimes I will acknowledge that someone is a painter, a sculptor, a wood carver or whatever but is he or she automatically an "artist"? That's why I can't call myself an artist.

I have seen the work of craft-persons, and even trades-persons- plumbers, carpenters, hairdressers and food stylists that can qualify as art because it is so beautifully done. I once had a young fellow do some surface mounted plumbing in my darkroom. He took the time to create a nice design with the copper tubing and painted some of it with special colorful coatings. He said, "I know you spend long hours in here and I didn't want the place looking like a dungeon"! Craft can be art.

Reply
Check out Infrared Photography section of our forum.
Feb 2, 2019 16:19:09   #
KiheiVillages
 
Nice point. There's art. And there's crafts.
But, if someone is a craftsman in say, the knowledgable use of their camera equipment and
software, to the extent they are not hindered, they may have an advantage over an equally artistic person, who doesn't know their craft.

Reply
Feb 2, 2019 16:20:47   #
KiheiVillages
 
traderjohn wrote:
If the person is a "modestly talented person who dreams of succeeding at a level unobtainable. Play within your game, and you will enjoy life" How can this person enjoy life if he/she is modestly talented and wants the top of the heap. That person is doomed. Is his game mediocrity? Where is the enjoyment in their life?

This is a life lesson, too many are blind to.

Reply
Feb 2, 2019 16:33:09   #
srt101fan
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
Perhaps I have a different conception of the term "Artist". I always think of it as a title only bestowed on the very best in their field. Perhaps this is something in my upbringing.

My grandfather was an accomplished and talented musician. He played the violin and many other string instruments. In his native Russia, he played in a symphony orchestra but when he immigrated the United States, times were difficult, he took a job as a laborer and seriously injured his hands. He never again played professionally but always played at family occasions and made sure all the kids had music lessons.

Grandpa always took me to concerts, listened to all kinds and styles of music on radio and TV and loved to hear stereo recordings. He would always critique the musicians- he was usually kind. He would remark that this guy or gal was a "good player, a good fiddler, or a fine musician" When, however, he watched or listened to a virtuoso- a grandmaster- he would say "Shooosh! Listen quietly" and say "this is an "ARTIST"!

Years later, when I began to attend open print judging session, I would listen to the critiques and judges would say "nice shot, good picture, not bad" and make their remarks but occasionally the words "this is the work of an artist" would arise.

Sometimes I will acknowledge that someone is a painter, a sculptor, a wood carver or whatever but is he or she automatically an "artist"? That's why I can't call myself an artist.

I have seen the work of craft-persons, and even trades-persons- plumbers, carpenters, hairdressers and food stylists that can qualify as art because it is so beautifully done. I once had a young fellow do some surface mounted plumbing in my darkroom. He took the time to create a nice design with the copper tubing and painted some of it with special colorful coatings. He said, "I know you spend long hours in here and I didn't want the place looking like a dungeon"! Craft can be art.
Perhaps I have a different conception of the term ... (show quote)


To my way of thinking, the process of creating art has to include a measure of originality. A work can exhibit superb craftsmanship, but without the element of originality it probably will not rise to the level of art.

Have we not all seen wood projects at craft shows that are based on plans and instructions copied from a magazine or book? No matter how well these projects are executed, I would have great difficulty affording them the same level of praise that I would give a well executed, imaginative original work. Superb craftsmanship? Maybe. Art? Probably not.....

Reply
Feb 2, 2019 16:38:56   #
srt101fan
 
KiheiVillages wrote:
Nice point. There's art. And there's crafts.
But, if someone is a craftsman in say, the knowledgable use of their camera equipment and
software, to the extent they are not hindered, they may have an advantage over an equally artistic person, who doesn't know their craft.


I agree. But I also believe true artists have an innate desire (passion?) to express themselves. They will be eager to study and learn their craft....

Reply
 
 
Feb 2, 2019 16:46:51   #
KiheiVillages
 
Absolutely...they immerse themselves into the craft that will let them express their art!
If you dont want to immerse yourself into how to use a camera, always leaving it on auto, your art may be fantastic, but there will be limits to expressing yourself. Flair, details, and imagination beyond the Auto "Box", will not exist.

Reply
Feb 2, 2019 17:07:01   #
aellman Loc: Boston MA
 
KiheiVillages wrote:
Anyone who thinks of themselves as an Artist, should get to know their Craft.
Sometimes the inexperienced consider a craftsman being the lesser.
Knowing how to expand the use of your tools, in ways others don't, or...
Knowing tricks of the trade, usually discovered by another craftsman's teaching,
these sorts of things have separated one's who just consider themselves artists,
with those who are artists who know their craft.
Of course, this applies to metal work, fine carpentry, pottery, painting, music, literature, etc. etc.
Oh, and photography.
Anyone who thinks of themselves as an Artist, shou... (show quote)


The terms are interchangeable, depending on who is using them and about whom they are speaking.
Would anyone object to the label "artist" for Ansel Adams?

Per Merriam-Webster:
Artist: one skilled or versed in learned arts
Craftsman: one who creates or performs with skill or dexterity especially in the manual arts

>>Alan

Reply
Feb 2, 2019 17:18:42   #
artBob Loc: Near Chicago
 
traderjohn wrote:
If the person is a "modestly talented person who dreams of succeeding at a level unobtainable. Play within your game, and you will enjoy life" How can this person enjoy life if he/she is modestly talented and wants the top of the heap. That person is doomed. Is his game mediocrity? Where is the enjoyment in their life?


All around me, and likely you, are artists and photographers who are "good," and making a living or an enjoyable hobby. They will likely never be acclaimed as great. Aside from accidents both ways, the only way to success seems to depend on three things: talent, hard work, and good luck. A person who is "merely" good as mentioned above has it much easier to succeed than someone who wants to be in the history books.

An enjoyable life does not depend on your avocation and desires.

Reply
Feb 2, 2019 17:18:59   #
CamB Loc: Juneau, Alaska
 
I always wished I was a better drummer and could play in better groups. I work hard in photography and ran a studio for 16 years, but I wasn't gifted and would drool over the work of gifted photographers. None the less, I've had a wonderful life, done amazing things, and been to great places. I still wish I was a better drummer and photographer but my life is full of enjoyment. Your take on not being the greatest at what you do certainly isn't true for me, and if this is your situation it's a bit sad.
...Cam
traderjohn wrote:
If the person is a "modestly talented person who dreams of succeeding at a level unobtainable. Play within your game, and you will enjoy life" How can this person enjoy life if he/she is modestly talented and wants the top of the heap. That person is doomed. Is his game mediocrity? Where is the enjoyment in their life?

Reply
Check out Landscape Photography section of our forum.
Feb 2, 2019 17:37:04   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
srt101fan wrote:
To my way of thinking, the process of creating art has to include a measure of originality. A work can exhibit superb craftsmanship, but without the element of originality it probably will not rise to the level of art.

Have we not all seen wood projects at craft shows that are based on plans and instructions copied from a magazine or book? No matter how well these projects are executed, I would have great difficulty affording them the same level of praise that I would give a well executed, imaginative original work. Superb craftsmanship? Maybe. Art? Probably not.....
To my way of thinking, the process of creating art... (show quote)


Good observation!

I like to TRY to produce unique images- true originals but I find that's a tall order. So...every year I have my own little head game that I stared many years ago when I was more active in professional association related print competitions. At the end of each year I wold go through my work and try to find unique images to enter into competitions and add to my displays and portfolio- ideas that were not derivative of what I have learned, gleaned, and/or emulated from others. A good year MIGHT have yielded 3, probably my average is probably 1.5 and sadly, mostly NONE! I am a commercial and portrait photographer and much of my work calls for traditional approaches and products. It's always stimulating, challenging and fun to try for differet points of view, new approaches and variations of style but TOTAL unique originality NADA! Not yet, but I'm still working at at it.

Reply
Feb 2, 2019 17:48:57   #
CamB Loc: Juneau, Alaska
 
Wow! Can't let this one go. By this definition no one is an artist and nothing is art. In Florence is "David" a sculpture by Michelangelo. Art? How could it be? A bunch of rock guys cut the rock using tools someone else made. Other people using wheels and carts moved that rock to his studio where he went to work using chisels, saws, hammers and sanding machines that yet other people designed and produced, to chip away at that rock until he was done. What does he have? A naked guy carved out of rock? Near my house is a forty foot humpback whale made of cast iron. Art? By your definition, how could it be. The 'artist' had a foundry cut the 57 sheets of iron using laser cutters. Craftsman using welding machines put it together and others using sanders and other tools, smoothed it out and then yet other craftspeople using all manner or modern tools shined it up and painted it and shipped it to Juneau where huge cranes lifted it into place. Where is the art in this? It's really just as giant piece of iron that looks like a whale. How would you make photography art without using your camera and computer and software and printers and framers and mat cutters? Or can photography and carved rocks and iron whales, never be art? I can't think of any art form that doesn't come to fruition without outside help. Even a writer needs a pen and paper or a computer.
...Cam
traderjohn wrote:
"A craftperson (gotta be PC, right?) is drilling holes and using anchors and screws for the purpose of hanging pictures on the wall. Doing that without doing serious damage to the plaster is a craft. But the moment they decide which pictures to hang and how to arrange them on the wall, that person becomes an artist".
Drilling a hole in plaster, sheetrock or other such material is nothing more than having knowledge of what size drill bit to use and the corresponding size wall anchor. Not really a craft at all just on the job training. Then after you have the various picture hangers in place and you take a picture or a piece of legitimate art and place them on a wall you are no more an artist than the guy who drills holes in the wall. You, if you need a title, are an interior decorator.
When you use a tool that is composed of plastic, metal some glass and electronic software and with this tool, you turn some dials set a shutter speed and adjust other parts of the electronic program then you take a picture. You now upload this to another electronic tool and then furthermore to a variety of different electronic programs that you own or rent on a monthly basis. You now use the various sliders in the electronic program and electronically manipulate the picture to enhance its offering. You may use a couple or a few more electronic programs to tweak it just so. Upon completion you now pronounce it a work of art. What??? In what way?? It is a picture nothing more.
"A craftperson (gotta be PC, right?) is drill... (show quote)

Reply
Feb 2, 2019 21:19:14   #
traderjohn Loc: New York City
 
srt101fan wrote:
I agree. But I also believe true artists have an innate desire (passion?) to express themselves. They will be eager to study and learn their craft....


Yup. Like a football player. A baseball player. A basketball player.

Reply
Feb 2, 2019 21:42:55   #
aellman Loc: Boston MA
 
CamB wrote:
Wow! Can't let this one go. By this definition no one is an artist and nothing is art. In Florence is "David" a sculpture by Michelangelo. Art? How could it be? A bunch of rock guys cut the rock using tools someone else made. Other people using wheels and carts moved that rock to his studio where he went to work using chisels, saws, hammers and sanding machines that yet other people designed and produced, to chip away at that rock until he was done. What does he have? A naked guy carved out of rock? Near my house is a forty foot humpback whale made of cast iron. Art? By your definition, how could it be. The 'artist' had a foundry cut the 57 sheets of iron using laser cutters. Craftsman using welding machines put it together and others using sanders and other tools, smoothed it out and then yet other craftspeople using all manner or modern tools shined it up and painted it and shipped it to Juneau where huge cranes lifted it into place. Where is the art in this? It's really just as giant piece of iron that looks like a whale. How would you make photography art without using your camera and computer and software and printers and framers and mat cutters? Or can photography and carved rocks and iron whales, never be art? I can't think of any art form that doesn't come to fruition without outside help. Even a writer needs a pen and paper or a computer.
...Cam
Wow! Can't let this one go. By this definition no ... (show quote)


Yep, and that's why "art"is what you think it is, and the same goes for me.

Reply
Page <<first <prev 6 of 9 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Check out Software and Computer Support for Photographers section of our forum.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.