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Low light performance in crop sensor body
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Dec 1, 2018 19:07:04   #
TonyBot
 
amfoto1 wrote:
Thanks for the clarification Chris... I wasn't sure about that, just I knew that one of the M-series was using it.

My point, though, was that someone might also need a software upgrade.... especially with the new CR3 RAW file format (if they shoot RAW).

I had some experience with that. When I upgraded from 8MP Canon 30D to 15MP 50D - which also involved a revision of the CR2 file from 12 bit to 14 bit - my post-processing software would no longer work, so I had to upgrade that too (approx. another $400 cost on top of the purchase of two cameras). Then I found my computer operating system was incompatible with the new software. A new OS also needed more RAM, and CPU upgrade was strongly advised.... I ended up buying a new computer.... maybe another $1000 by the time I added graphics card, a network card, installed RAM and some other things. In the end, what started out as a simple camera upgrade ended up being a LOT more complex and expensive than I expected!

The transition from Digic 7 & CR2 to Digic 8 & CR3 concerns me. I know my software, which I really don't want to upgrade right now, couldn't handle it (no problem, since I'm not in the market for either EOS R or M50).

I just wanted to give the original poster a heads up to watch out for this, since his or her budget seems fairly tight.

It's interesting all the different suggestions here... Virtually any relatively recent DSLR or mirrorless would be a significant improvement in high ISO capability compared to a 9 or 10 year old T1i (I don't know how old the OP's Pentax is). And, sure, a recent full frame camera would be even better. But with limited budget, changing systems or "going full frame" sounds like it would be out of the question. Folks recommending $1000 and more expensive Nikon DSLR bodies (for example) and others who are insisting that a full frame upgrade is the only solution really aren't taking into account that to change systems or do a FF upgrade would just be too costly. The OP would need to replace lenses and all, too. Those cameras might work great, but would end up costing far more than the $1000 budget.

Among the alternatives I suggested, Canon SL2 body only is on sale right now for $500... but if they want a more advanced current model T7i is $700, 77D is $750 and 80D is $1000. 80D is also available refurbished from Canon USA for $800. Recent models such as T6i and T6s are also available at reasonable cost, both new and refurbished. OP also mentions some concern about size and weight (hence ruling out full frame), which is why I mentioned Canon M-series mirrorless as a possibility. For example, there's a seriously discounted sale price on the top-of-the-line M5 right now... $579 body only (regularly $979)... or $700 in kit with EF-M 15-45mm STM lens... or $900 with the EF-M 18-140mm STM lens. (With M-series, OP would also need to get an adapter to use any existing EF/EF-S lenses on the camera.)

The best solution would be to pick one or the other system between what they already have, and upgrade that with a newer APS-C camera. This would give them improved high ISO performance, plus allow them to continue using lenses, etc. that they already have. I know the Canon system and based my recommendations on that. I don't know the Pentax system very well, but I bet a similar upgrade may be possible with that.

Whichever they choose, it would probably make sense to later sell off the other system and, if they wish, put any gains toward expanding the system they keep... it's expensive using multiple systems!
Thanks for the clarification Chris... I wasn't sur... (show quote)


Check out these prices re: 80D *with a 430EXiiiRT flash* (don't know how long this will last but the source is good) (scroll down a little)
https://www.cpricewatch.com

Great deal!

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Dec 1, 2018 19:34:03   #
Photocraig
 
Weddingguy wrote:
Can you tell me if the 80D and the 77D have the same sensors?


Yes. ALong with the T7i, SL2 and others. 24mp APS-C. Check the DIGIC Processor version, in particular for low light. I believe DIGIC 8 is the latest for APS-C.

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Dec 1, 2018 19:53:47   #
tomcat
 
Bison Bud wrote:
While I understand the importance of a fast lens, the use of a tripod, and that we've discussed many times the advantages of a "Full Frame" sensor when it comes to overall low light performance, I am pretty much stuck in a crop sensor world for my photography hobby. This is primarily because of the price differences, but it is also due to the overall, physical size of the FF, DSLR's that I have had the pleasure to handle personally, with say the Canon 6D being about as big as I would ever care to go. While neither of my DLSR's are noted for their low light performance, I do okay with my Pentax K3 and/or my backup Canon T1i. However, low light performance has always been a big disappointment for me with either camera. While the K3 has a much higher ISO range than the T1i, it also appears to bring in more noise at comparable ISO settings and frankly, neither is really acceptable to me above say ISO 1600. I guess going higher with the ISO is better than not getting a shot, but even after extensive efforts in post processing, the noise levels are bothersome to me and I have to wonder if there isn't a crop sensor DLSR or Mirrorless body out there that could be a real improvement in overall low light performance without having to move up to a FF sensor.

Therefore, I am interested in discussion on which crop sensor body might have the best overall low light performance (not just how high I can set the ISO, but more about the results when I do use a high setting). I'd also be interested in what I should be looking for as I research this area of performance in today's offerings, as well as any other less equipment related tips you might be willing to share. Before you ask, I am on a fixed income and my photography budget is a lot lower than I like it to be. Therefore my personal, yet optomistic, budget would have to be under $1000.00 and I would prefer to find something used and save every dollar I possibly can. I'd be very willing to do without things like GPS and WiFi as long as there is real improvement in the low light performance. Thanks and good shooting to all.
While I understand the importance of a fast lens, ... (show quote)



You will need to better define "low light" in turns of the ISO as a unit of measure. Low light for me is 18,000-20,000 and higher, so for me there is no crop camera that can give me satisfactory results at that high ISO. Most of them will start giving very poor results around ISO of 2,000. So I would suggest you get a FF, Sony A7-iii if your budget is limited and if not, get the Sony A-9. Those are the two best low light cameras now.

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Dec 1, 2018 20:11:51   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
Photocraig wrote:
Yes. ALong with the T7i, SL2 and others. 24mp APS-C. Check the DIGIC Processor version, in particular for low light. I believe DIGIC 8 is the latest for APS-C.


Craig ... this is the hierarchy of the latest Canon EOS CPUs -

The Hierarchy of the most recent Canon EOS CPUs -
Digic 6
1Dx Mk. II, 5Ds / 5Ds R, 5D Mk. IV, 7D Mk. II, 80D, T6i / T6s, M3, M10
Digic 7
6D Mk. II, 77D, T7i, SL2, M5, M6, M100
Digic 8
M50, EOS R

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Dec 1, 2018 20:37:05   #
jeof1000
 
Is DxOMark the God of Reviews? When they say its this lens/camera is good.. period end of discussions. It seems in this forum we heavely rely on it... just asking...

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Dec 1, 2018 20:46:38   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
jeof1000 wrote:
Is DxOMark the God of Reviews? When they say its this lens/camera is good.. period end of discussions. It seems in this forum we heavely rely on it... just asking...


Not too sure about that, Jeof ... a few folks give high esteem to DPReview, too ...

Seems to me the best source anyone has - is their local camera rental service !!!!

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Dec 1, 2018 21:02:01   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
throughrhettseyes wrote:
The size of the sensor does not determine the amount of light a camera takes in. Its the shutter speed and the aperture that determain. Now the quality of the sensor does determine how light sensitive you ISO can go up to. But, ISO is only electronic gain and that is what causes noise. So the same lens on a full frame and on a crop sensor let in the same amount of light. So when buying a new camera look for better ISO clarity and low light sensitivity to get better exposure in low light situations. Image stabilization can help you get one or two extra stops in low light situations too. I have a Nikon D500 and love it. I can shoot in virtually no light and get an image. On a D850 full frame can beat it. Just barely.
The size of the sensor does not determine the amou... (show quote)


Not strictly true. At a given light intensity more photons will fall on a larger photosite than on a smaller one. Think of it this way: For a given rainstorm, so many millimeters per hour falling, you will end up with more water in a bigger bucket even though the intensity of the rain is the same for a smaller bucket. It's the same with photons on a photosite. More photons means less need for amplification, less amplification means less noise.

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Dec 1, 2018 21:07:56   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
Chris T wrote:
Not too sure about that, Jeof ... a few folks give high esteem to DPReview, too ...

Seems to me the best source anyone has - is their local camera rental service !!!!


DxOMark does repeatable, controlled tests. For purely objective data they cannot be beat.

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Dec 1, 2018 21:14:00   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
kymarto wrote:
DxOMark does repeatable, controlled tests. For purely objective data they cannot be beat.


So that's why, Toby ...

Now, if only they could make their site easier to get to, AND to make it WORK - they'd really have something!!!!

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Dec 1, 2018 21:17:37   #
wings42 Loc: San Diego, CA
 
My D7200 is an all around wonderful camera, but it drives me nuts trying to get a decent bird photo in shadow or late afternoon. I'm posting this in case you're tempted to get the D7200 since the D7500 got a recommendation above. When I can afford it, I'll probably spring for a D500.

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Dec 1, 2018 21:23:47   #
jburlinson Loc: Austin, TX
 
Bison Bud wrote:
Before you ask, I am on a fixed income and my photography budget is a lot lower than I like it to be. Therefore my personal, yet optomistic, budget would have to be under $1000.00 and I would prefer to find something used and save every dollar I possibly can. I'd be very willing to do without things like GPS and WiFi as long as there is real improvement in the low light performance. Thanks and good shooting to all.


I'm going to respect your budgetary limitation and recommend you consider the Nikon D5500. Definitely not the latest, but a very decent dslr with strong ratings for low light performance; including good scores from DXO. Here's a link to a field test on Imaging Resource that provides some samples taken at iso's as high as 25,600 (!) and not looking too shabby at all.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d5500/nikon-d5500-field-test-part-i.htm

Cost is around $500 for new and less for refurbished. Pair this up with the Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8 OS HSM -- a fast lens with stabilization which will also help enhance low-light quality by bringing down that high iso. You can get the Sigma for under $300 -- so the total cost is well under budget.

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Dec 1, 2018 21:29:20   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
wings42 wrote:
My D7200 is an all around wonderful camera, but it drives me nuts trying to get a decent bird photo in shadow or late afternoon. I'm posting this in case you're tempted to get the D7200 since the D7500 got a recommendation above. When I can afford it, I'll probably spring for a D500.


Just from what I've read, David ... that's why I mentioned the D7500 as being one of the better dig cams for LLP AND being lighter ...

I don't have one ... just the D7100, and the D7000 ... never got round to picking up a D7200 ... but, suspect, I might go straight to the newer one.

Sure the D500 is a better camera ... but it's also quite a bit heavier ... AND about another $800 more ... for that, you could get a D7200, too!!!

And the 20mp Sensor in all three - the D5, D500, and D7500 - is the same, supposedly ...

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Dec 1, 2018 21:37:51   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Chris T wrote:
...And the 20mp Sensor in all three - the D5, D500, and D7500 - is the same, supposedly ...


The D5 is FF, but the D500 and D7500 are crop, so doubtful the sensor is the same in all three (unless you’re being facetious).

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Dec 1, 2018 21:43:22   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
kymarto wrote:
DxOMark does repeatable, controlled tests. For purely objective data they cannot be beat.


I am sure they get good data - it is their interpretations I question....

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Dec 1, 2018 21:45:05   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
Chris T wrote:
So that's why, Toby ...

Now, if only they could make their site easier to get to, AND to make it WORK - they'd really have something!!!!



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