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why do you shoot raw
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Mar 16, 2018 15:18:43   #
Blenheim Orange Loc: Michigan
 
home brewer wrote:
I was disappointed to see this thread enabled some to get in a yelling match; but it has happened in the past.


I thought that it was far better than usual when this subject comes up (though that may not be saying much!) There are a lot of really good replies in the thread, and not too much acrimony.

Mike

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Mar 16, 2018 15:21:05   #
Blenheim Orange Loc: Michigan
 
Jaackil wrote:
Yes you are missing something rather simple. If you are viewing it via your computers picture viewer what ever that may be. The reason you see little to no difference between the jpeg shot in camera and the raw rendered on your screen is because your computer has to convert that raw file to a jpg thumbnail for you to view it on the screen of your computer. Raw files are just pure digital data and must be converted to jpg to be viewed. It does not change the raw file at all it just converts it temporarily to a format you can see where as your camara actually edits and converts. If you view it in Adobe raw or other raw editor you will see a much flatter image which is the actual raw rendering.
Yes you are missing something rather simple. If y... (show quote)


JPEGs are also merely data files and they also need to be interpreted by software in order to be viewed.

Looking at Canon raw files in Canon's raw file program, I am not looking at JPEGs.

Mike

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Mar 16, 2018 15:23:43   #
jackpinoh Loc: Kettering, OH 45419
 
Blenheim Orange wrote:
I don't believe that the CR files (Canon's raw format) as viewed in DPP (Canon's program for editing their raw files) can properly be called "JPEGs." Nor do I think that PSP files, for example, viewed in Adobe programs are JPEGs. GIF files are not JPEGs, nor are PNG files nor TIFF files. Therefore, a file does not need to be displayed as a JPEG in order to be seen.

Files in all image formats need to be interpreted by software, do they not?

Mike

You missed the parenthesis in the quote you are critiquing.

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Mar 16, 2018 15:33:23   #
Blenheim Orange Loc: Michigan
 
lamiaceae wrote:
Raw files HAVE TO BE processed.


No, they don't.

Al digital files need to be interpreted for viewing.

Mike

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Mar 16, 2018 15:43:01   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
Jpegs are fast food. Raw files are whole foods. Which is better for you?

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Mar 16, 2018 15:54:49   #
terry44 Loc: Tuolumne County California, Maui Hawaii
 
To me its more fun to use as many of the tools (features) that my camera has I cannot see why a person would spend all that cash just to use a minuscule amount of a cameras abilities (functions), raw gives us the most latitude to work with jpg is just accepting a small amount of what is possible with film I was able to manipulate the shot to create either what I saw or what I wanted to project with manipulation of light, chemicals etc. today we are so lucky to have a program we can work with to do the same and so much more why not use raw and get the most from it jpg limits us though when I get the finished product as I want it I save a jpg of that work. Anoka huh I grew up on McCarrons lake in Roseville went to Kellogg high.
davyboy wrote:
You make photography no fun I fine tune my jpegs they give me as much as I need and could ask for

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Mar 16, 2018 15:55:51   #
canon Lee
 
rehess wrote:
These issues have already been addressed, but to review:

(1) Yes, processing in camera may cause exposure changes. If I don't like them, I can adjust levels using gimp in a minute or so.

(2) My ultimate goal is a JPEG file; I use minimal compression - if there were a tiny detail lost, that would happen also when I converted to JPEG at the end. Since I don't normally pixel peek, but look at the entire picture at once, most likely I would't miss that detail anyway.

(3) I do just one EXPORT to JPEG {in gimp, SAVE results in a native file}. My careful testing has shown that I can do that one EXPORT without losing anything {this whole subject was the subject of an extensive thread here}

I follow the same workflow documented in use at the Olympics. That seems entirely appropriate to me since I envision the same kind of mission for my work, in my case "capturing my world today before tomorrow comes and everything changes", that they have.
These issues have already been addressed, but to r... (show quote)


refering to comment #2... The "ultimate goal" is always a print, so the last thing in your editing procedure (in RAW) is to export in JPEG> JPEG is the final step to make an image. Raw is "data" which creates a JPEG image for print. Original Raw data is preserved. Jpeg on the other hand is "changed" and looses resolution, where RAW data is not..

refering to comment #1.. shooting in Jpeg compresses ( throwing out pixels) reducing picture quality. "Minimal commpression", you are still starting out with less resolution, LESS. So to begin with you are starting out with less pixels to work your magic with. If you really want to capture detail then shoot in RAW.

refering to comment#3.. Once you compress to jpeg, any additional edits you might want to make, will result in "less" picture quality when you "save" the changes. Raw you always have the "original" data to create a new and fresh jpeg... RAW is not a photo its data, jpeg is created from data. The original data can be changed endless times without loosing any quality.. In RAW you create a new Jpeg not a jpeg reworked.

Professionals use LR and shoot in RAW. I know of no professional that shoots in JPEG, unless shooting for fast buffer time, or news journaling.. Studio work is always RAW...

Again, I cant understand why anyone would want to shoot in jpeg. I hope its not due to the price of LR raw converter program.

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Mar 16, 2018 16:01:52   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
jackpinoh wrote:
I guess some people like trees and buildings that visibly tip toward the centerline of photos. At least it is symmetric.

My camera fixes lens distortion. Anything left in pictures taken with my Pentax lenses is closer to what I see than all perfectly parallel would be. Anything that leans in my images would also lean in images produced by photographers highly paid to cover the Olympics; I'm willing to be at their level.

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Mar 16, 2018 16:02:08   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
Have you ever eaten fast food? Then that's why.
canon Lee wrote:
refering to comment #2... The "ultimate goal" is always a print, so the last thing in your editing procedure (in RAW) is to export in JPEG> JPEG is the final step to make an image. Raw is "data" which creates a JPEG image for print. Original Raw data is preserved. Jpeg on the other hand is "changed" and looses resolution, where RAW data is not..

refering to comment #1.. shooting in Jpeg compresses ( throwing out pixels) reducing picture quality. "Minimal commpression", you are still starting out with less resolution, LESS. So to begin with you are starting out with less pixels to work your magic with. If you really want to capture detail then shoot in RAW.

refering to comment#3.. Once you compress to jpeg, any additional edits you might want to make, will result in "less" picture quality when you "save" the changes. Raw you always have the "original" data to create a new and fresh jpeg... RAW is not a photo its data, jpeg is created from data. The original data can be changed endless times without loosing any quality.. In RAW you create a new Jpeg not a jpeg reworked.

Professionals use LR and shoot in RAW. I know of no professional that shoots in JPEG, unless shooting for fast buffer time, or news journaling.. Studio work is always RAW...

Again, I cant understand why anyone would want to shoot in jpeg. I hope its not due to the price of LR raw converter program.
refering to comment #2... The "ultimate goal&... (show quote)

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Mar 16, 2018 16:05:08   #
terry44 Loc: Tuolumne County California, Maui Hawaii
 
Yes you can but only so much with raw a person can work rework and rework over and over with varied results and do no damage the best way to do this with jpg is to create multiple copy's and work with them as then the original will be intact. No one is saying a person must work with one not the other it is a matter of choice,
jpg is smaller and uses less space on a hard drive if that is a concern to me storage is cheap so I choose raw files over jpg.
davyboy wrote:
Stop saying you have to except what the JPEG gives you! You can PP jpegs and improve them nicely

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Mar 16, 2018 16:07:45   #
terry44 Loc: Tuolumne County California, Maui Hawaii
 
Kozan wrote:
I get excited when you speak ZONES!



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Mar 16, 2018 16:09:47   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
Scotty, you caught me on the Color Space part, as I was thinking WB, but hadn't had any coffee yet.

As for ADL, no effect on RAW. ADL only works on jpg format. At least in Nikon cameras. As for mistakes in exposure that either clip highlights or block shadows, very difficult to recover either. There is simply no data there with which to work. The best practice is ETTR/EBTR. Watch the highlights and the shadows will take care of themselves.
--Bob
selmslie wrote:
ADL allows the camera to recover some of the highlight and shadow information much like you would when recovering that information when you develop from the raw file. If that's the only correction you need then the JPEG SOOC might be just as good as the JPEG you develop from raw. There are a cfew caveats:
- Just as good may be good enough.
- If you want to do further editing of the JPEG tonality, you need to convert to 16-bit TIFF.
- ADL is arbitrary. You can't recover highlightsor shadows separately. You may need to bracket. You may also need to adapt the level of ADL to the scene.

There are few decent JPEG-only editors but if all you need to do is crop and resize, ADL may be all you need.

While it is possible to accomplish almost the same result using ADL, it's still easier to develop from raw. At least you are starting with more than 8-bit color.
ADL allows the camera to recover some of the highl... (show quote)

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Mar 16, 2018 16:34:42   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
canon Lee wrote:
refering to comment #2... The "ultimate goal" is always a print, so the last thing in your editing procedure (in RAW) is to export in JPEG> JPEG is the final step to make an image. Raw is "data" which creates a JPEG image for print. Original Raw data is preserved. Jpeg on the other hand is "changed" and looses resolution, where RAW data is not.

I have made six prints in my entire life.

With film I made slides to be projected on a screen; now I make JPEGs to be viewed on a screen.

JPEG created by the camera, as I use it, loses no more than JPEG created by an editor from a 'raw' file.
I follow the same workflow used in covering the Olympics; my orientation also happens to be the same.


BTW: this isn't a big deal, but this is the second time you have used the word 'loose' {the opposite of 'tighten'} when you meant to use 'lose' {the opposite of 'find'}.

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Mar 16, 2018 17:02:42   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Fotoartist wrote:
Jpegs are fast food. Raw files are whole foods. Which is better for you?



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Mar 16, 2018 17:06:16   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
home brewer wrote:
I know this is an old topic; but maybe I can some. I am heading to antelope canyon on a photo tour in about a month and want to make sure I get good shots. I am assuming that the raw photos will improve my chances of fixing improper exposures.

This discussion is directed to those who use raw. I have read many of the on-line explanations about raw photos having more color depth, levels of brightness and the file not degrading when it is edited. I notice for my d500 that for the same photo the jpeg is 13.9 mp (5568x3712x24b) and the raw 25.7 mb (5568x3712x48b) there does not appear to be much if any difference between the jpeg and the raw . On the screen of the 4 year old 23" PA248 ASUS the images look the same and the same for the Dell ultra sharp. Resolution is set at 1920 x 1200 for both. The color space is Adobe RGB. The shots were at iso 200, f/10, 1/100s and 18mm with auto white balance facing north on a sunny morning. The shot goes from light shade to bright sun on the trees. I shoot both raw, compressed, 14 bit and jpeg large fine.
Maybe I am missing something; but I think most of the good shots do not need postprocessing. If the shot is important I bracket expose and may change the f-stop and shutter speed.
It seems to me one shoots raw to fix shots that were incorrectly exposed.
I print my photos on an Epson Artisan 810. So far, I have not tried any shop for a larger print. The local drugs stores and other similar places do not good work.
Questions and comments
1. Should I switch to rRGB color space and why?
2. How can I tell how much brightness levels are in the photo? Is it in the histogram? The histogram for the two photos are not the same.
3. The apparent brightness in greater in the jpeg.
4. What changes do you make to most raw shots?
5. Are there good on lind articles on how to process raw photos?
6. What format do you save them in after post processing?

Thanks to all those help
I know this is an old topic; but maybe I can some.... (show quote)


The simplest answer just may be the best answer - if you can process a raw file to look better and be more complete than a camera's jpeg - is there any reason on earth why you'd want to settle for the jpeg out of the camera?

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