DB Loc: Myrtle Beach, SC

heheehehehehehee I'm a Nikon Girl with a D90 and you've seen my photos....I'm a happy camper....

And ty for the sunflowers.... amazing

gemartin Loc: Statesboro, GA

@ gessman You said:
"You sound like a methodical person. Could I persuade you to take an identical shot on both the 7D and MkII with the same lens at he same focal length, preferably a long lens screwed all the way out, and then crop the MkII image down to the size of the 7D image and put them on here for a side-by-side. My sense is that cropping the larger image to match the crop sensor size will show that the "extra reach" of the crop sensor with the same lens loses whatever advantage the "reach" of the crop sensor provides. I have a 20D but I'd like to see it from the 7D with it's greater mpixel. People keep saying the 7D's reach is greater but nobody has put that to a test that I'm aware of. I got the MkII precisely because the size of the image allows me to magnify and crop to a small part of an image and still maintain a sizable file which, to me would seem to be the same thing as having "extra reach." If you don't have time, I will still thank you for just reading this but I'm done with the business of everyone contending something as if it were fact when it hasn't been put to a test. Most everyone who has preferred the 7D had done so because of the "extra reach" and the 7 fps which I feel can be offset by 3+ fps and "peak of the action" timing. Looks to me like the shotgun v. the sniper rifle argument again. Thanks."

I mostly agree with you, but shotguns and rifles have different applications. I tried to convey that the primary differences are the focus system and burst rate. The fact is you can get images with the 5D that are not possible with the 7D, but images with the 5D if cropped down are essentially the same as 7D, I get that. The higher shutter rate of the 7D is a distinct advantage when shooting action shots [anticipating "peak of the action"] is not as critical and requires less experience and skill. Both cameras are excellent tools, shoot super images, and have theri best applications.

gessman Loc: Colorado

I know. I was just being a little controversial to see if I could get a rise out of someone. Looks like I might have. I wish the MkII had the response time of the 7D and like someone said back up the way, maybe the MkIII will be the best of all worlds. I hope so and hope I can afford one of 'em when they come out. The thought is exciting for an ol' geezer. Thanks. You're a gentleman and I appreciate it. We'll all get some pictures no matter what we use - some good, some bad, and some in between.

leatherhelmets Loc: Center Conway, NH

I'm from NY so the tone doesn't phase me. What I have taken away from all of this is some great information and a realization of the fact that we're all pretty passionate about photography. I've seen some great photos on the sight, much of which has been the work of many who are involved in the above debate and using their favorite camera. Bottome line, I appreciate the fact that gessman is trying to get the best real information out there so that people can make informed decisions. Maybe next time you just start with..."It's just one man's opinion, but I think......"

Happy shooting.

gessman Loc: Colorado

Maybe next time I have to start with "It's just one man's opinion, but I think, since my back has been pushed to the wall and I'm gonna have to come out fighting, that...

And thank you for recognizing my intent. I don't have to be here.

...and now Amen!

crudasill Loc: Texas

pdwoodswood Loc: Lewisville, NC

Hello gessman....thank you for being on the forum. You experience and credentials need no apology or preface, as in "just one man's opinion". Opinions and judgments based on decades of experience are entirely two different things.
Personally I go with experience. Some people should just read, ask questions and keep their opinions in their mind.
Still learning after 30+ years.

gessman Loc: Colorado

Thanks folks. There is so much about this whole issue that is subjective and I try to steer clear of hotly contested, oft needlessly repeated, subjective matters and contribute in a way that's not domineering and obtrusive in the minds of others. After all, none of us here can possible have all the information, especially those of us who, like me, is a mere long suffering amateur. I don't let this stuff bother me. I often enjoy playing devil's advocate and challenging pat thinking even if it's right. I don't think that hurts. It keeps us on our toes. I enjoy being here and playing the role I do and sincerely hope that nobody gets too bored with me. I do have to admit that my earlier apology was a little bit tongue-in-cheek designed to lure any argumentative person on this issue out from their lurker's perch. Nobody took the bait. I don't really think I have done anything here to upset anyone. I was being a little more devilish than usual but it was all in good fun and I just guess I hit a raw nerve with Marvin but I'm sure he'll live over it. Thanks again.

Dyluck4 Loc: Georgetown Indiana

I think your doing great Gessman, and find all the information you provide educational in the learning of Photography and very true in the information I've learned in reading about all the camera's in what they do. I also agree in what you say about the person knowing there camera and operating it properly in using all of it's tools. Thanks for all the information you give us.

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

I'm new to this forum but have been reading it for a while. I will do intros another day but joined just to help answere your ?. If it still needs answering. I see it on every forum. You got lots of advice but nobody answered your ?. I have used a 7D several times and own the mkll. The answere is how you intend to use the camera. The 7d is designed for sports and nature. The 5d for landscape. Both will cross over well since they are latest models. The 7d has the speed and fast fps for action coupled with the not more advanced but higher focus point focusing system to better track action. Wildlife is served by the crop senser that brings a native 1.6x magnification that the 5d needs a 1.4x converter to get even close to it. The 5d has the higher pixel count and because of this the slower processing speed and 1/2 the fps. Both are really good low light shooters. If you do landscape with the 7d you really need a +/- 10mm lens because of the crop. The 5d ff is pretty good with a 17-40L. On the FF a 24mm is pretty wide. On the crop 24mm is almost a std. lens(34.4mm). An if it's important the 5d has the better video but no external video on/off and no built in flash. The 7d is slightly smaller and lighter not to mention less money.If your thinking semi pro get more camera and more glass otherwise probably won't matter.
Your sample photo of the little girl is better for the 5d but the duck is the 7d. Depends on which is your stronger shooting type. Your two photos represent 2 completely diff. photo catagories. As for lenses of course L glass is better. But keep in mind that while you debate the merits of each that guy over there with the plastic fsntastic just took a couple of award winning photos. Glad to try and help. Let me know if there is other info You would like me to try and answere. You already know the 7d well. The 5d is prtty much the same just intended for a diff. type of photography. Know your subject first and the camera will follow.

crudasill Loc: Texas

Thanks so much for your thoughts. Your answer opened up a question that should be more direct and to the point, we will see. My passion is to take pictures of my grandchildren, candid is my favorite. If I can get a "duck or two", when I'm out taking pics of them, great.
The contest here got me interested in just going out today and "see" what is a good photo might be, but basically, all types of children photography outside is what I want it for. BTW, because the Mk ll doesn't have a built in flash, do you HAVE to get one? My 7D's built in flash always pops up and ruins some pics, in my opinion.
I have questions to ask, if you don't mind. you hit the nail on the head with your reply.
Smiles,
Cindy

Merle Loc: Ormond Beach, FL

To prevent your 7D built-in flash from popping up unwanted you need to get out of the fully auto modes. Start by setting the mode to Av (Aperture Priority) and depending on the desired depth of field wanted, set the aperture and the camera will then set the corresponding shutter.

Hope this helps.

Merle

gessman Loc: Colorado

Okay. That is a very good and analytic study, briefly and succinctly stated and I would just have 3 questions for you.

a) I've read that "cramming" more pixels onto a sensor does not necessarily render an improved resolution just because there are more pixels. A 7D is a case in point - it is a crop sensor and it has had pixels "crammed" onto/into it to push it up to the 18, I think I heard, megapixel level it is which started out to be considerable less as in the case of my 8 mpixel EOS 20D. Whereas the full sensor of the 5D MkII is 21, up from the 12 of the original 5D. Were pixels merely "crammed onto" the 5D sensor to boost it from 12 to 21 and is there any accuracy to the comment about "cramming" pixels onto a sensor?

b) Since the 5D MkII preceeded the 7D into production, why do you suppose Canon chooses to think the 5D is worth nearly twice as much as the 7D? "Because it can."

c) What about the nagging question of taking an identical shot with both cameras and cropping the 21 mpixel one down to match the 18 mpixel one to the difference in the "range gain" of the crop sensor and comparing them at that point to see if there is ultimately a range difference or a "quality" difference?

I don't have the answers to these questions so it should be evident that I am not trying to set you up here, but you seem very resolute in your information so, in the absence of anyone else who can definitively answer these question in this forum up to now, what is your response to the three questions? Thank you for lending your expertise to the discussion.

alm Loc: Springfield Mo

Merle is correct I believe, and the mode he has suggested is the one I use most of the time. Since you have been using an automatic mode you might try P which lets you decide when you want to use flash and is pretty much automatic otherwise.

crudasill Loc: Texas

Thanks, guys!
So nice to be able to ask and...
"you will receive"! Awesome!