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equivalent focal lengths vs angle of view
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Jan 23, 2016 05:40:45   #
DaveHam Loc: Reading UK
 
The crop sensor does not magnify the image - it reduces the total available image area so making the subject take up more of the total image area in a picture.

Try taking the same image at the same distance with both cameras. The subject will be the same size in each, but the crop sensor image will take up a higher proportion of the total image area.

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Jan 23, 2016 07:25:37   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
This site is great. It gives direct, zoomed-in comparisons of the same subject taken with different cameras. I've selected the D750 and D7200 (D7000) not available. You can zoom in a lot more, too.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

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Jan 23, 2016 08:02:18   #
steve_stoneblossom Loc: Rhode Island, USA
 
jerryc41 wrote:
This site is great. It gives direct, zoomed-in comparisons of the same subject taken with different cameras. I've selected the D750 and D7200 (D7000) not available. You can zoom in a lot more, too.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM


Minor correction: 7000 is available for comparison. At the top of each column, you have a choice of "current" cameras or "all" cameras, click on "all".

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Jan 23, 2016 08:06:13   #
SonyBug
 
Bobspez wrote:
Do what I did. Go outdoors and hang a magazine cover with pictures and small print about 50 ft away. Set each cameras on the same tripod and use the same lens at iso-100, full zoom with the same lighting conditions and f stop in aperture mode on both cameras and take a couple of shots with each camera. The camera will adjust the exposure time that suits it's sensor. See which shots are best. That should answer your question for once and all.

I tried it with 3 cameras with FF, DX (1.5 crop factor) and CX (2.7 crop factor) sensors and my 55-300 lens at 300mm.

My experience is that the longer equivalent focal length trumps the shorter. Cropping the FF and DX images down to the same angle of view as the CX image, I got more fine detail with the DX than with the FF, and more fine detail with the CX sensor than the with DX. The equivalent focal lengths were 300mm for the FF, 450mm for the DX, and 810mm for the CX.

When I compared the file sizes and number of pixels in each of the images cropped to the same field of view, I found the CX image was about twice the file size and had more than twice as many pixels as the DX image, and the DX image was more than twice the file size and had more than twice as many pixels as the FF image. The FF is a 14MP sensor, the DX is a 14MP sensor and the CX is a 10MP sensor.

Have you tried cropping a D750 pic to the same field of view as a D7000 pic taken at the same distance with your lens at full zoom? Were both pics the same size with the same number of pixels? Does the D750 cropped pic have the same fine detail resolution as the D7000 pic, when both are viewed at full size? If so, then you don't need the D7000, but I would rely on my own eyes rather than a theory. To paraphrase Einstein ... In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
Bob
Do what I did. Go outdoors and hang a magazine cov... (show quote)


All that is very interesting, but I would be interested in what cameras you used. Theory has it that if you did that test, the FF cropped to the exact picture result (for ex. a word on the page) would be the best image. But, my result from looking at the variables is to get a D810 so my image has more information, and when I crop, I then get more detail. JMHO.

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Jan 23, 2016 09:07:05   #
JohnM Loc: Springfield, Illinois
 
steve_stoneblossom wrote:
Minor correction: 7000 is available for comparison. At the top of each column, you have a choice of "current" cameras or "all" cameras, click on "all".


thanks Steve and Jerry! Doing my best to make the comparison equal by enlarging and sliding to get like next to like it looks to me like in many cases the D 7000 wins on clarity ( just for example being able to read the buttons on the models cloths) also, to my eye the colors seem just a bit brighter on the D 7000. Of course how would we know which is closer to true rendition?

I guess based on this I would have to say to close to call as to IQ?

Maybe I am missing something, if so, please tell me.

Thanks,

John

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Jan 23, 2016 10:55:06   #
dylee8 Loc: South Florida
 
John I agree with your observations.

From the same distance, cropped to the same size, the D7000 has a higher resolution (16MP vs 10.3). Therefore more details are showing.

the D7000 picture is brighter, but easily fixable through post processing.

However I think the D750 is smoother and better depth. And overall a better IQ.

Note also this is strictly an exercise in cropping/zooming. There are many other aspects to a camera - ISO, auto-focus, etc. D750 excelled in all those areas.

If we are to shoot this same picture with the two cameras - settings, composition, distance, lens might all be different with each camera.

What this seems to point out is that, for long zoom and cropping - needed for wild life photography - D7000, antiquated as it is, has the better reach through higher megapixel density. The D750 will need a longer zoom lens. Kinda what MT and others are saying.


JohnM wrote:
thanks Steve and Jerry! Doing my best to make the comparison equal by enlarging and sliding to get like next to like it looks to me like in many cases the D 7000 wins on clarity ( just for example being able to read the buttons on the models cloths) also, to my eye the colors seem just a bit brighter on the D 7000. Of course how would we know which is closer to true rendition?

I guess based on this I would have to say to close to call as to IQ?

Maybe I am missing something, if so, please tell me.

Thanks,

John
thanks Steve and Jerry! Doing my best to make the... (show quote)

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Jan 23, 2016 11:51:37   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
dylee8 wrote:
....Also the D750 is 24 megapixels, compared to 16 on the D7000. Even considering the sensor size differences, the "Megapixel Density" are identical. This means that if I start cropping the pictures from both cameras, I should get the exact same resolution - even though I am cropping more on the D750....


This is NOT correct.

In DX mode, the D750 is reduced to a 10MP camera (compared to the D7000's 16MP or the D750's FX mode 24MP... If, instead, we were comparing with the 36MP FX D810, it's DX mode image size is a bit more than 15MP, so would be more comparable to your D7000's resolution.).

So there is significant loss of resolution, using a full frame camera in the "crop" mode. More than you might think, at first glance. And you'd see exactly the same degree of IQ and resolution losses if you were to crop the image to the same dimensions in post-processing.

Because of this, using the 150-600mm on the D7000 makes more sense for wildlife photography. It's 16MP gives you potential for more enlargement or more cropping, if needed.

That said, 10MP may be "enough" for a lot of purposes. Heck, I got some good shots with 1.2MP cameras in 1998, 6MP cameras in 2004 and 8MP cameras in 2007!

But keep in mind, too, that the D7000 is now a five year/two generation old camera model. It was introduced in 2010, superseded by the D7100 in 2013.... and that camera was in turn superseded by the 24MP D7200 last year (though this was a less dramatic upgrade than the D7100 vs the D7000).

Part of the D7000's greater resolution (compared to a cropped D750 image) is likely offset by the continuing improvements in DSLR tech... four and five year newer models most likely render a bit better overall quality, in addition to any sheer increase in resolution.

In comparison, the 24MP D750 was introduced in 2014 and is still in production.

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Jan 23, 2016 12:03:38   #
SteveR Loc: Michigan
 
I have both a D7000 and a D800. A few months ago my grandson had a birthday party at my daughter's and son's in law apartment pool. I used the D7000 and my 28-300mm lens rather than the D800. Why? Because the D7000 is a crop camera. It's called a crop camera because it crops the photo in-camera. By giving me the field of view of a 42-450mm lens, I was able to see all around the pool from where I was standing. I could have gotten those same views with the D800, but I would have had to crop each and every one of them in post production. This is one reason to use a crop camera. I could give you more.

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Jan 23, 2016 12:19:56   #
JaiGieEse Loc: Foxworth, MS
 
Here we go again. People, people, people. Just set the camera to jpeg or RAW, as per your preference, check the metering, focus, etc., frame the image and depress the shutter. Later on, you can post-process, or not, again, as to your preference.

While you're standing there working math formulas in your head and trying to use that to determine which camera to employ, I've taken ten or fifteen more images.

Work on your friggin' SKILLS, folks. The most expensive, most capable camera in the world is nothing more than a lump of metal, plastic and glass until it's in the hands of a skilled shooter.

The eye and the mind behind the viewfinder is the most important part of the photographic process.

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Jan 23, 2016 12:36:45   #
lsaguy Loc: Udall, KS, USA
 
I really love this group! Equivalent focal length of a FF lens on a DX sensor camera has twisted my neurons into a knot when I try to rationalize it. In 30 or so posts you all have greatly increased my understanding. Thanks to all.

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Jan 23, 2016 12:49:27   #
rfmaude41 Loc: Lancaster, Texas (DFW area)
 
dsmeltz wrote:
Your math is wrong. An APS-C is about .485 the size of a FF. So the MP left on the FF after you crop to get the same field of view would yield around 11.643 MP, not 16.


1/(1.5 * 1.5) = .66666 (not .485).

0.6666 * 24 (the D750) = ~16 (the D7000)

Who taught you mathematics (from the "Core Curriculum / Modern Math") ???

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Jan 23, 2016 13:24:39   #
dickwilber Loc: Indiana (currently)
 
rfmaude41 wrote:
1/(1.5 * 1.5) = .66666 (not .485).

0.6666 * 24 (the D750) = ~16 (the D7000)

Who taught you mathematics (from the "Core Curriculum / Modern Math") ???


1/(1.5*1.5)=0.444!

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Jan 23, 2016 14:07:35   #
CraigFair Loc: Santa Maria, CA.
 
dylee8 wrote:
I have a Nikon D750 and D7000, and a sigma 150-600 lens that I use for wild life photography.

For a long time my understanding was that for the same lens, a cropped sensor camera has a longer reach compared to full frame. There is an "equivalent focal length", in this case 225-900mm. Taking wild life pictures with the DX camera is preferred because of this.

But then I read that lens focal lengths don't change. The term equivalent focal length is misleading. It really is angle of view. Because full frame camera has a bigger sensor (in this case 1.5X). It captures more picture compared to cropped frame, and gives the illusion of less reach.

Also the D750 is 24 megapixels, compared to 16 on the D7000. Even considering the sensor size differences, the "Megapixel Density" are identical. This means that if I start cropping the pictures from both cameras, I should get the exact same resolution - even though I am cropping more on the D750.

Therefore I should not be using the D7000 at all - wild life or otherwise. For lens reach/picture resolution there is no difference, and D750 offers so much more.

Is this a valid? I like to get opinions from fellow UHHs.
I have a Nikon D750 and D7000, and a sigma 150-600... (show quote)

Your depth of color and contrast will be far better with the D750 even cropped to the 'equivalent' of the D7000.
Craig

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Jan 23, 2016 14:22:29   #
JaiGieEse Loc: Foxworth, MS
 
CraigFair wrote:
Your depth of color and contrast will be far better with the D750 even cropped to the 'equivalent' of the D7000.
Craig


Now, that's a fair statement. I've made it clear I don't care for this sort of discussion, but it is true, IMHO, that the QUALITY and CAPABILITY of a given sensor is far more important than is said sensor's size.

A newer design and new capabilities will win out most every time. Which is not to say that this is of overriding importance.

Learn the camera you have. Sharpen your skills. then go out and take some pix and leave the calculators at home.

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Jan 23, 2016 15:02:30   #
ebercovici
 
Resolution and IQ drop off in the peripheral regions of a sensor. Therefore, an image should be better from a full frame sensor with cropping in post processing than from a crop sensor with the image already cropped. Without post processing, an image would appear to be larger from a crop sensor than with tghe same lens and a full frame sensor.

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