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equivalent focal lengths vs angle of view
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Jan 22, 2016 16:11:55   #
JohnM Loc: Springfield, Illinois
 
MT Shooter wrote:
You are talking two different cameras, with two different purposes. The "wise" decision is the one YOU make that fits YOUR needs. Together they make one hell of a pair of bodies though!


thanks MT and yes even with my limited knowledge agree with what you said. The cost of one is a pretty steep hill, the cost of two is beyond a jump with a really long pole.

Thanks for your input,

John

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Jan 22, 2016 16:17:47   #
SharpShooter Loc: NorCal
 
dylee8 wrote:
I have a Nikon D750 and D7000, and a sigma 150-600 lens that I use for wild life photography.

For a long time my understanding was that for the same lens, a cropped sensor camera has a longer reach compared to full frame. There is an "equivalent focal length", in this case 225-900mm. Taking wild life pictures with the DX camera is preferred because of this.

But then I read that lens focal lengths don't change. The term equivalent focal length is misleading. It really is angle of view. Because full frame camera has a bigger sensor (in this case 1.5X). It captures more picture compared to cropped frame, and gives the illusion of less reach.

Also the D750 is 24 megapixels, compared to 16 on the D7000. Even considering the sensor size differences, the "Megapixel Density" are identical. This means that if I start cropping the pictures from both cameras, I should get the exact same resolution - even though I am cropping more on the D750.

Therefore I should not be using the D7000 at all - wild life or otherwise. For lens reach/picture resolution there is no difference, and D750 offers so much more.

Is this a valid? I like to get opinions from fellow UHHs.
I have a Nikon D750 and D7000, and a sigma 150-600... (show quote)


Dylee, everything you have said, all things being equal, is correct.
The reason Canon shelved the 1.3x crop, was because you could crop the new pro sports camera and get the same angle of view(actually better) with out sacrificing IQ or performance.
Then not to mention that the bigger sensors just flat out produces better results overall.
It's one of the reasons that few crop cameras are made into pro bodies, and actually none. If it was, it would cost the same as a pro body and nobody would buy it. At least nobody sane would!! ;-)
SS

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Jan 22, 2016 16:21:07   #
SharpShooter Loc: NorCal
 
MT Shooter wrote:
And exactly where did I say the magnification changed?????


:lol: :lol: A bit insecure are we?!?! :lol: :lol:
SS

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Jan 22, 2016 16:21:08   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
Depends on the task. The FF has better light sensitivity and a larger field of view for landscapes and tight quarters, and may autofocus better. But for long telephoto work with the same lens, the DX reach can be an advantage.
oldtigger wrote:
if crop sensor gave equal or better results there would be no market for full frame

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Jan 22, 2016 16:39:50   #
dylee8 Loc: South Florida
 
There are a few suggestions to do that. I will try that out over the weekend.

Math78 wrote:
Since you own both cameras, take an identical picture (same focal length) and compare. Is the cropped D750 the same as the D7000 uncropped picture?

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Jan 22, 2016 16:42:39   #
dylee8 Loc: South Florida
 
From discussions in this thread it appears crop sensor is preferred over full frame for wild life.

oldtigger wrote:
if crop sensor gave equal or better results there would be no market for full frame

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Jan 22, 2016 16:46:18   #
dylee8 Loc: South Florida
 
You are right!!! Crop sensor is 24x16mm, FF is 36x24mm. So it is 1.5X for each dimension. Total FF area is 2.25 that of Crop. So Crop Megapixel density is much higher than FF.

dsmeltz wrote:
Your math is wrong. An APS-C is about .485 the size of a FF. So the MP left on the FF after you crop to get the same field of view would yield around 11.643 MP, not 16.

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Jan 22, 2016 16:48:29   #
dylee8 Loc: South Florida
 
Thank you MT. D7000 does provide more pixels than equivalent cropped D750. So in some instances it still makes sense to use D7000 for long zoom, as you described.

MT Shooter wrote:
The D7000 does still give you more pixels on target than the cropped D750 image when using the same lens. In excellent lighting conditions the D7000 image will be slightly better. However, in less than optimal light, the vastly better sensor and processor of the D750 will perform better.
I use the D800E as my workhorse, but still carry a D7200 for those times when I need more pixels on target with a long lens (Soon to be replaced by the D500).
The field of view (angle of view) is indeed what actually changes due to the smaller area of the crop sensor. When the "crop factor" of that sensor is applied, the 35mm "EQUIVALENT" field of view is attained, i.e. 600mm x 1.5X = 900mm. All this is telling you is that a FF camera would have to be using a 900mm lens to get the same field of view as you are getting on your crop sensor body. So no, it is not misleading so long as you understand the math and principal involved.
The D7000 does still give you more pixels on targe... (show quote)

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Jan 22, 2016 16:58:43   #
dylee8 Loc: South Florida
 
Thanks Bob. After re-doing the math your results make sense. This sounds fun I might try it out myself.

Bobspez wrote:
Do what I did. Go outdoors and hang a magazine cover with pictures and small print about 50 ft away. Set each cameras on the same tripod and use the same lens at iso-100, full zoom with the same lighting conditions and f stop in aperture mode on both cameras and take a couple of shots with each camera. The camera will adjust the exposure time that suits it's sensor. See which shots are best. That should answer your question for once and all.

I tried it with 3 cameras with FF, DX (1.5 crop factor) and CX (2.7 crop factor) sensors and my 55-300 lens at 300mm.

My experience is that the longer equivalent focal length trumps the shorter. Cropping the FF and DX images down to the same angle of view as the CX image, I got more fine detail with the DX than with the FF, and more fine detail with the CX sensor than the with DX. The equivalent focal lengths were 300mm for the FF, 450mm for the DX, and 810mm for the CX.

When I compared the file sizes and number of pixels in each of the images cropped to the same field of view, I found the CX image was about twice the file size and had more than twice as many pixels as the DX image, and the DX image was more than twice the file size and had more than twice as many pixels as the FF image. The FF is a 14MP sensor, the DX is a 14MP sensor and the CX is a 10MP sensor.

Have you tried cropping a D750 pic to the same field of view as a D7000 pic taken at the same distance with your lens at full zoom? Were both pics the same size with the same number of pixels? Does the D750 cropped pic have the same fine detail resolution as the D7000 pic, when both are viewed at full size? If so, then you don't need the D7000, but I would rely on my own eyes rather than a theory. To paraphrase Einstein ... In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
Bob
Do what I did. Go outdoors and hang a magazine cov... (show quote)

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Jan 22, 2016 17:24:46   #
DOOK Loc: Maclean, Australia
 
I have a D750 & a D7100 & also have a 150-600mm lens. Both cameras are 24 MPs. With the lens @ 600mm, the D7100 has the same fov as a 900mm lens on the D750. To get the same 900mm equivalent with the D750, I would have to use the DX crop, which reduces the the MPs to 16. In my case, I am better off with the D7100 for birding, as I get the equivalent of 900mm, yet still retain 24 MPs.

In your case, it would be six of one & half a dozen of the other, as either camera will give you the same fov (900mm equiv) @ 16 MPs. I would lean towards the D750 because it has a much better A/F system than the D7000.

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Jan 22, 2016 18:23:46   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
dylee8 wrote:
Thanks Bob. After re-doing the math your results make sense. This sounds fun I might try it out myself.


:thumbup:

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Jan 22, 2016 18:36:19   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
dylee8 wrote:
From discussions in this thread it appears crop sensor is preferred over full frame for wild life.


Yes, but mostly in better lighting conditions only ( or with faster lenses) - and according to your threshold for noise and (lack of) details.

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Jan 22, 2016 18:54:32   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
dylee8 wrote:
From discussions in this thread it appears crop sensor is preferred over full frame for wild life.


If you print your work, you might find that any improvement of a crop sensor image will be negated as soon as you print. I found this out when I had two cameras of the same generation - a Nikon D300 and a D700 - both were 12 mp sensors. inevitably, when printed, even when cropped, the D700 images were cleaner, smoother and just looked better. This is not to say that the D300 images were poor quality, but on screen there seemed to be a slight advantage. But the image when printed must be enlarged more from a cropped camera - and at a normal viewing distance of about 5 ft, fine detail is lost anyway. The lower magnification of the FF camera, even cropped, makes for a nicer (subjectively speaking) looking image. All bets are off if you compare a D800 to a D300 - no contest - the D800 is a clear winner - cropping and all.

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Jan 22, 2016 19:12:15   #
oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA
 
Finally some sanity.
I was beginning to wonder why anyone ever purchased a full frame body.

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Jan 22, 2016 19:43:27   #
mcveed Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia (between trips)
 
DOOK wrote:
To get the same 900mm equivalent with the D750, I would have to use the DX crop, which reduces the the MPs to 16. In my case, I am better off with the D7100 for birding, as I get the equivalent of 900mm, yet still retain 24 MPs.

In your case, it would be six of one & half a dozen of the other, as either camera will give you the same fov (900mm equiv) @ 16 MPs. I would lean towards the D750 because it has a much better A/F system than the D7000.


Not quite. The D750 in DX mode produces an image of 10.3 mega pixels, not 16. The image size is reduced by a factor of 1.5 in both dimensions. 36mm x 24mm becomes 24mm x 16mm. 6016 x 4016 = 24.16 MP; 3936 x 2624 = 10.3 MP.

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