Dave Johnson Loc: Grand Rapids, Michigan

You see Bangee there is where you are wrong. You assume you know who and what I am based on a few posts on a camera forum. I was a Born again, baptized in the holy ghost, tongues speaking, holy roller for the better part of 13 years. I studied the bible, I mean really studied the bible which, in large part is why I am an atheist today. I'm completely cogniscent of the doctrine of the blood sacrifice of Jesus fulfilling the old covenant requirement to god etc. I just don't believe it anymore.

You mentioned that Christians aren't under the ten commandments anymore. You are the first Christian I have ever talked to who has said that. If you really believe that my hat is off to you. That would at least make you consistent.

I believe my moral system to be superior precisely because it has no single source. Morality has developed over time and will continue to do so.

Bangee5 Loc: Louisiana

You have a right to believe as you will. Not only is it your personal right, your Constitutional but your God given right to believe as your conscience dictates. I honor that but also, from my point of view, your are worse off now than when you first began.

As I tried to be clear, even atheist have morals, I doubt you not but if your morals are not consistent but changes with each knew fad or with every new idea that comes along then I would question what morals you do have, myself being not without sin but keeping in mind that there is someone much greater who judges me then a mere man.

I can say this, although we do not agree, it has been a pleasure to have this discussion with you without the malic that usually accompanies such discussions. Thank you for that Mr. Johnson.

hondo812 Loc: Massachusetts

Have you and I conversed before? If we have I certainly don't recall it. Do you put yourself in that group of people that are "decent, compassionate, caring, nurturing and kind to human beings, dogs and little kittens"? Introducing yourself in the manner that you have would suggest not, but who knows? Maybe you just had a bad day. Or maybe you are better with cats.

Asking about this topic is pretty straightforward. If I am speaking with a Christian from the US or one from Europe or China, I know that at a fundamental level we have something in common with respect to our belief system. There is a common root. Since most of the worlds religions keep to similar basic beliefs (killing, lying, stealing, etc. are bad, just to make this simple) we share common ground. A Jewish person can point to the Torah, the Talmud; Christians the Bible, Buddhists the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (among others) as a common reference point.

Where do atheists point? Do atheists have a "common root"? These should not be such difficult questions to answer.

And nope, not an alcoholic. Not really a Bible thumper either.

JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco

I doubt there are many nonreligious people whose morals change with every new fad or idea that comes along. I believe that when people change their view of morality, it is usually because of a better understanding of society and morality. For instance, if someone has been raised to believe homosexuality is immoral but then comes to believe it isn't, I see that as a loving and accepting point of view, and not as the result of a fad or new idea.

green Loc: 22.1749611,-159.646704,20

morals were developed as day-to-day practicalities as we developed larger societies beyond the extended family unit...and these morals were incorporated into religion.


The premise you have is incorrect;

a religious person's morality did not come from god... it is man's ultimately man's interpretation
an atheist's morality is also a man's interpretation

Croce Loc: Earth

Yes, I place myself in the good guy category. Again I state what difference does it make where my moral compass came from as long as it point me in the good guy direction. Why are you so eager to profile? Do you think Lutherans for example are inherently more moral and beneficial to mankind than Catholics or Seven Day Adventists etc etc?. I say it matters not why a person is good. It only matters that they are. I also see that your opinion of yourself as concerns bible thumpers may not be in evidence to others.

I will now answer your question as concerns Atheists. Atheists do not have a common root as far a I can see. We are not a united superiorist movement. We do not claim to be better than those like you, we just do not believe in gods and bibles.

Now, again I ask you. Why is it important for you to know where a man came upon his goodness? Why not just assess whether he is or is not a "good man"? Seems simple enough to me. Why not to you?

hondo812 Loc: Massachusetts

My question to the atheists is what do they point to, now?

It was not about how morals and taboo developed in a tribal setting. Though, those people would be able to answer by saying their stories, legends, songs, etc. or something to that effect.

I have yet to see any atheist on here say much of anything beyond life's experience. Assuming that is true, and since most of the atheists on here have rejected formal religion it's still safe to say that religion was part of their life's experience. There are other sources but I haven't seen anyone else name them.

green Loc: 22.1749611,-159.646704,20

Personally, I was taught that it was wrong to kill by my father. I remember putting black ants and red ants in a frisbee and watching them fight... a little bit science, a little bit gladiators.... he was so mad, it made an impression on me... then to seal the deal, Gandalf (LOTR) tells one of the munchkins:



I went to sunday school and church, but it was always stories of men in robes marching around the desert... I learned no morality in church.

hondo812 Loc: Massachusetts

An honest answer!

Learning from your parents is probably the number 1 way we arrive at our moral compass but I am pretty sure you are the first in 9 pages to express that.

Dave Johnson Loc: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Thank you Bangee, I too am put off by the vitriol that often accompanies these posts. I will just reiterate for you that my morals don't just flip right or left on a whim. when it comes to the important subjects I tend to be introspective. It's been a pleasure sir. :)

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Bangee5 Loc: Louisiana

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

taffthetooth Loc: U.K

As I said in an earlier post, the flaw in the atheist argument is that you cannot get to an objective moral viewpoint from an natrulistic/materialistic universe, only subjective.
If your culture says it's wrong and against the law to bbq babies, but you come on a culture that says it's ok, the only thing you can say is ( from an atheist pov) that you don't agree with it. You can't call it evil or wrong. Short video clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxiAikEk2vU

green Loc: 22.1749611,-159.646704,20

where so you think religions get their morals: from the culture... just look at the changing morals in the Bible...

taffthetooth Loc: U.K

Thanks for the post, but it's a strawman post, try answering the original question.

Croce Loc: Earth

Oh taff, come on. To say that good, moral people, the type that a practicing, fervent christian would describe as good, (10 commands etc etc etc. ) can not exist without god is idiotic. What you guys need 10 commandments to accomplish, we get done with only 6. I know many and I mean many people who are not followers and are non the less wonderful human beings. Many, and I come upon them even tho we have no temple in which to assemble and raise choirs from such as you church goers do. We are out there, individually being good people by deed not by self declaration with a bible in our hands.

Then, per the video ... the idiosy of trying to prove god exists by saying if good exists god exists, is to say the least, very self serving.

I am a good person, I am generous, I help other people, I fight for upholding the dignity of man, I would sacrifice my life to save another and have been put in jeopardy of such several times in the past. I love and nurture babies, lesser creatures, and contribute money to charity. My favorite being the funding of corrective surgery for babies with cleft palate or hare lip. No I am not driven to such by the misfortune of my own children, I just feel no child should face rejection and be unable to suckle properly. Such suffering brings me to tears. No, I am not saying I am wonderful, I am merely stating fact in self defense. If as you say god exists and we are all children of god, then it must be god who inflicts pain upon these babies. I do not blame god because I do not believe in god. Please do not respond with the devil argument or "testing us" argument, I have heard them all before and reject them as passing the buck.

One final question: Why is it so important for you and those like you to reject the idea that people can be good, loving, nurturing, useful, moral selfless people without believing in god??????? Do you really believe that all good and only good comes from god and only god. If you do you should start out by first proving there is a god and not through a back door argument such as stated in the video you offered.