tinosa Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan

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Very interesting. Rather than hijack this topic I'll start another to see if I can become "unconfused".

ThomasS Loc: Colorado

How the Hell did you get a picture of my house, and why didn't you stop in for a cup of coffee?

ThomasS Loc: Colorado

Wait until you see the size of the files that D800 can generate.

ThomasS Loc: Colorado

This has been "interesting," but will someone please explain why we care if there is a baby JPEG hiding in our RAW files or not? I'm a Systems Engineer and this is sounding too much like a discussion I might have at work. UGH! I don't need that and it won't help me take better pictures. I like MT's answer and I don't care what you "found" on the WEB. Believe it or not, not everything you read on the WEB is true or accurate. Sometimes you just have to think for yourselves.

mdorn Loc: Portland, OR

Some people care, some don't... You obviously don't. Part of the question (although, it has changed a few times) was if an embedded JPG actually exists within the RAW data format. I can't speak for all, but I wasn't really looking for an opinion about how useful this may or may not be. Since there are so many different RAW formats, the answer may not be completely clear, but certainly we can get some clarity on both NEF and CR2. I'm still researching this, but unlike some of you retired folk, I have a fulltime job to keep as well. :-)

I'm not sure how a "Systems Engineer" qualifies you to "work" this question, but if you have the time and energy, then please give us some answers. If we accepted the "WEB's" answer, the discussion would be over by now. I'm still not sure yet.

Regardless, you are correct, the answer won't help us take better pictures, but I didn't realize that all these discussions needed to be directed toward that end. Sometimes people just want to know.

St3v3M Loc: 35,000 feet

Hoping to close this thread I Googled .RAW and found some interesting information.

http://www.photoxels.com/tutorial_raw.html
and
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/u-raw-files.shtml

russelray Loc: La Mesa CA

Thanks for finding some interesting information but it probably won't close this thread. :mrgreen:

KDyar Loc: North Carolina

All the More reason to expose for RAW when shooting RAW - as I've stated in previous posts.

ThomasS Loc: Colorado

I never said I didn't care. I just wanted to know how having a JPEG file embedded (or not) in a RAW file would affect the photograph created by the camera. Usually when a question is asked on this forum, someone is having a problem with a camera, lens, or something related to how their pictures are coming out, but there certainly aren't any restrictions on what you can ask.

As for my qualifications, you apparently don't know what an Aerospace Systems Engineer is, or what we do. The Team I headed was in Colorado Springs, CO, Los Angeles, CA, and Sunnyvale, CA. We brought the GPS Satellite Constellation on line, we worked the software for the Hubble Space Telescope, we worked on numerous "black" projects for the Department of Defense, and other silly little things like that. I built my first computer from spare parts and had to learn to program the damn thing. In the "old days" a computer would just sit there and blink at you unless you told it exactly what to do in machine code. Yes I can write code, but not in languages you have ever heard of. Being retired doesn't make me brain dead; I still consult, but I would rather be out taking photographs.

mdorn Loc: Portland, OR

Thomas,

We all have interesting backgrounds, credentials, experience. I've also worked for the DoD, and although I'm not retired yet, I'm not as young as you might think. :-) Yet, I don't automatically appeal to authority, so including your background doesn't do anything for me regarding this topic.

I respect MT Shooter's photography experience, so when he said the embedded JPG thing didn't exist, I was curious. Again, I don't appeal to authority so I started researching myself---after all, for most people the answer to this question is irrelevant, but since I'm curious, I want to know. To me, the question is not an opinion---the NEF and CR2 formats either have them or they don't.

If you have some supporting information either way, I wish you would provide it. BTW: I'm a little jealous of you. I'm looking forward to retirement.

ThomasS Loc: Colorado

Retirement has allowed me the time to get back into photography. I used to work 14 hour days and had very little time for fun activities. My wife pushed me into retiring about three years before I had intended to, and probably saved my life. I had already had one heart attack at work.

I wasn't trying to impress anyone with my background, I just wanted to make it clear that I am a well educated technical person. I wish I could add more to the JPEG discussion, but everything I know is similar to what has already been stated. Good luck on your quest.

mdorn Loc: Portland, OR

I respect that. I learned long ago that if you want people to think you are educated and intelligent, all you really have to do is say something intelligent. :-) Your background is indeed impressive, but you don't have to prove anything to this group with your resume! I believe you are a smart guy.

Bless your wife for saving your life! And this proves that you are a smart guy by listening to her. :-) I really do envy you. Stay healthy, Thomas. Peace.

ThomasS Loc: Colorado

Thank you for the kind thoughts. My health has improved dramatically since I pulled the plug. Being a hard charger helped me at work, but ruined my health. I hope you will be able to retire, before long. My Sister is a College Professor, and I have talked her into retiring next year.

mdorn Loc: Portland, OR

Last week I downloaded a small application that was able to access the embedded JPG data within one of my CR2 Raw data files. It extracted the JPG, and put it in a location of my choosing. When I reviewed the results, I couldn't believe it, so I continued to research. I thought perhaps this little program (written in C) was actually creating the JPG on the fly from the Raw data.

I took this C program to work and consulted a few programmer gurus over lunch. This wasn't cheap---I had to buy them lunch. :-( Anyway, the two of them looked over the code and after a few chuckles over the type of strings that were used, they said that the program indeed was only extracting JPG data from the CR2 file.

Of course, I can't confirm the NEF format, but the current version of CR2 does indeed have an embedded JPG. More surprisingly, it had a very good quality JPG. For my camera it was a max resolution of 4752x3168. Large enough to make a decent 4x6 print. The photos had characteristics similar to how my camera is setup---white balance, sharpness, contrast, etc.

The one drawback I did notice is that there is no EXIF data associated with these extracted JPGs.

Again, I can't confirm these findings for all types of Raw formats, but I'm satisfied that for Canon and the CR2 format there is an embedded JPG.

Extracted JPG from CR2

russelray Loc: La Mesa CA

That's enough to make even a larger decent print.