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Sharpness question
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Jun 7, 2014 09:25:20   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
mcmm wrote:
Mystery solved! I forgot there was even a place to change sharpness. It had been changed to a 4. It gives you a choice from 1-7 so I bumped it back up to 5 and then tried 7 and you were right. The DPP showed whatever number I had changed it to.
So I guess the next question is what number should I set it on?


There isn't one level of sharpness that will be best for all photos. Different subjects or lighting can have different levels of sharpening that is ideal. That is why it is best not to apply sharpening in camera, or do it at a low level, and then choose the amount of sharpening that looks best in post.

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Jun 7, 2014 09:54:29   #
dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho
 
Psergel wrote:
I think you have the answers you were looking for but.....just so you are not left with the wrong impression.
Your software is not doing an evaluation of the sharpness of your image. It is not giving you it's opinion.
It's displaying the level of sharpness (an adjustment) that has been applied by either your camera (based on settings you can make) or...the level of sharpness that you have applied using the software. Whichever came last.
You can and should set the sharpness to whatever looks best (without creating artifacts.)
I think you have the answers you were looking for ... (show quote)


Forgive me for asking but what is an artifact? I always thought it was something dug up an an archaeological site, something old from another time. I have never used it in a photography context unless a pharaoh used a camera 3500 years ago.

Dennis

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Jun 7, 2014 10:20:56   #
Psergel Loc: New Mexico
 
dennis2146 wrote:
Forgive me for asking but what is an artifact? I always thought it was something dug up an an archaeological site, something old from another time. I have never used it in a photography context unless a pharaoh used a camera 3500 years ago.

Dennis


I had a hard time getting used to the use of "artifact" in photography too.

It's usually used to refer to an undesired effect of Post Processing adjustment. When sharpening, if you take things too far you can create a halo effect around certain details of the image creating a very artificial look. (artifact.....artificial)

www.dslreports.com/faq/13197

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Jun 7, 2014 11:56:48   #
mcmm Loc: Kansas
 
Thank you for the information. I was concerned that I was doing something wrong and that I wasn't meeting a standard that would be considered a quality photograph. Personally I liked the photos that I was looking at but like all of you I want them to be WOW photos instead of just good ones. I am learning so much from all of you but have a long way to go!
Psergel wrote:
I think you have the answers you were looking for but.....just so you are not left with the wrong impression.
Your software is not doing an evaluation of the sharpness of your image. It is not giving you it's opinion.
It's displaying the level of sharpness (an adjustment) that has been applied by either your camera (based on settings you can make) or...the level of sharpness that you have applied using the software. Whichever came last.
You can and should set the sharpness to whatever looks best (without creating artifacts.)
I think you have the answers you were looking for ... (show quote)

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Jun 7, 2014 12:02:31   #
mcmm Loc: Kansas
 
I guess I had this idea that it wasn't a good photo unless it was good coming out of the camera before making any adjustments in Photoshop. Am I correct in assuming that a large percentage of photos that I see on this site have had some post processing applied?

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Jun 7, 2014 14:35:24   #
Psergel Loc: New Mexico
 
mcmm wrote:
I guess I had this idea that it wasn't a good photo unless it was good coming out of the camera before making any adjustments in Photoshop. Am I correct in assuming that a large percentage of photos that I see on this site have had some post processing applied?

I can't speak for anyone else but.....100% of my photos get some degree of post processing.

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Jun 7, 2014 16:08:44   #
SharpShooter Loc: NorCal
 
mcmm wrote:
I guess I had this idea that it wasn't a good photo unless it was good coming out of the camera before making any adjustments in Photoshop. Am I correct in assuming that a large percentage of photos that I see on this site have had some post processing applied?


Mcmm, welcome to the Hog, and yes, your assumption is actually correct.
1st, about sharpness. The sharpness that is seen by a normal eye(neutral sharpness), is represented in a Canon camera as a sharpness of 3. Canons default sharpness setting as a camera is delivered to the consumer is 3(neutral). You can of course change that, and if shooting RAW, can be applied after the fact. If you are set to less than 3, you are actually getting a pic that is less sharp than seen by the eye. And 4 or more is adding sharpness(contrast) that is beyond what is neutral. keep in mind that a pic can not be made sharper than how it was taken. The process is only creating a higher contrast, along contrasting lines, to make the areas appear mor pronounced giving the appearance of sharpness. There is no substituted for good technique, including sharpness. A very fine line will quickly pixelate with even moderate sharpening and be obvious to a trained eye.
If you're set at 3(neutral), and the pic is taken sharp, then NO additional sharpening in post would be necessary.
The reason all RAW pics need some PP, is that in RAW, the file does not represent what the eye actually saw, and we want to get it to that neutrality that our eye had actually seen as a starting point. It is just the nature of the beast we call RAW! And we are of course free to go as far beyond that as we wish, which is where all of the controversy comes in.
The problem is that many try to take a crappy pic, and think that if they PP the beejeebies out of it, that somehow they made it better. But it's still the same crappy pic, masquerading as some kind of art.
There are great shots that can benifit from removing a piece of trash, or increasing a highlight, raising a black hole to pull some detail etc. but you have only improved small details, not overhauled the composition.
Your question was about sharpening, I hope that helped. ;-)
SS

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Jun 7, 2014 17:33:08   #
speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho
 
mcmm wrote:
I have the Digital Photo Professional software that came with my Canon T3i. I often use it to check settings, etc. of photos I have taken. I have some photos from a year ago that show a 5 for sharpness but I've noticed in the past year that most of my photos have a 4 for sharpness. I've tried using different lenses, different settings. tripod and handheld but still am not seeing the 5 sharpness that I used to get on some of my photographs.
Not all of my photos were a sharpness of 5 but some were. Most are 4's but was wondering if I should be concerned? Would love for them to be 5's but don't know what I am doing wrong. I appreciate any help you could give me. I want to be as good as all of you at taking awesome photographs so I know I am in the right place for help! Thank you in advance for you help and knowledge.
I have the Digital Photo Professional software tha... (show quote)

There is no need to be concerned, the sharpness is set in the camera before the shoot, and DPP is just reading the meta data (which sharpness setting was used), that's all.
Although I have to say, a setting of 5 seems very excessive!

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Jun 7, 2014 18:39:02   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
mcmm wrote:
I guess I had this idea that it wasn't a good photo unless it was good coming out of the camera before making any adjustments in Photoshop. Am I correct in assuming that a large percentage of photos that I see on this site have had some post processing applied?


Most serious photographers shoot in RAW, so no processing is applied in the camera, and the images must be post processed to some degree when they are opened, and usually some additional post processing later. Sharpening in particular is usually one of the last things done, and depends on the size of the file and its intended use (printing or on-screen use).

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Jun 7, 2014 19:01:34   #
mcmm Loc: Kansas
 
You have all been so helpful. I will go back and set my camera to neutral and work with that for a while and see if I feel I need to make adjustments.
So much to learn!!!!

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Jun 7, 2014 21:54:19   #
Marionsho Loc: Kansas
 
mcmm wrote:
You have all been so helpful. I will go back and set my camera to neutral and work with that for a while and see if I feel I need to make adjustments.
So much to learn!!!!

Welcome to the Hog, mcmm.
Keep in mind that it's easy to over sharpen in PP. My photo teacher said he was a judge for a photo contest, and said "more than 50% were over sharpened!" He said you have to increase the size to 200%, or more, to get a better look at what you're doing.

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Jun 7, 2014 21:57:47   #
Marionsho Loc: Kansas
 
SharpShooter wrote:
Mcmm, welcome to the Hog, and yes, your assumption is actually correct.
1st, about sharpness. The sharpness that is seen by a normal eye(neutral sharpness), is represented in a Canon camera as a sharpness of 3. Canons default sharpness setting as a camera is delivered to the consumer is 3(neutral). You can of course change that, and if shooting RAW, can be applied after the fact. If you are set to less than 3, you are actually getting a pic that is less sharp than seen by the eye. And 4 or more is adding sharpness(contrast) that is beyond what is neutral. keep in mind that a pic can not be made sharper than how it was taken. The process is only creating a higher contrast, along contrasting lines, to make the areas appear mor pronounced giving the appearance of sharpness. There is no substituted for good technique, including sharpness. A very fine line will quickly pixelate with even moderate sharpening and be obvious to a trained eye.
If you're set at 3(neutral), and the pic is taken sharp, then NO additional sharpening in post would be necessary.
The reason all RAW pics need some PP, is that in RAW, the file does not represent what the eye actually saw, and we want to get it to that neutrality that our eye had actually seen as a starting point. It is just the nature of the beast we call RAW! And we are of course free to go as far beyond that as we wish, which is where all of the controversy comes in.
The problem is that many try to take a crappy pic, and think that if they PP the beejeebies out of it, that somehow they made it better. But it's still the same crappy pic, masquerading as some kind of art.
There are great shots that can benifit from removing a piece of trash, or increasing a highlight, raising a black hole to pull some detail etc. but you have only improved small details, not overhauled the composition.
Your question was about sharpening, I hope that helped. ;-)
SS
Mcmm, welcome to the Hog, and yes, your assumption... (show quote)

Thanks for the very informative reply.

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Jun 7, 2014 23:14:22   #
OonlyBonly
 
The sharpness and a few other settings there are controlled by the "type" of photo to which the camera is set. Portrait, Landscape, Standard, Neutral, etc. all have different combinations of settings. You can change those settings easily to fit what any particular photo may require.

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Jun 7, 2014 23:19:47   #
SharpShooter Loc: NorCal
 
Marionsho wrote:
Thanks for the very informative reply.


Marion, you are quite welcome. ;-)
SS

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Jun 7, 2014 23:31:14   #
SharpShooter Loc: NorCal
 
Marionsho wrote:
Welcome to the Hog, mcmm.
Keep in mind that it's easy to over sharpen in PP. My photo teacher said he was a judge for a photo contest, and said "more than 50% were over sharpened!" He said you have to increase the size to 200%, or more, to get a better look at what you're doing.


Marion, I hate to say it, but 50% is probably low! :lol:
But DO keep in mind that when viewing at 100%, you are viewing at one pixel on the digi file to one pixel on you monitor, so there is no distortion, that's why we usually use 100%. At 200%, your monitor has to start interpolating, thus inherently introducing at least some distortion to what you are viewing.
Just saying. ;-)
SS

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