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Income inequality
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Jan 10, 2014 11:27:53   #
surfshoptom
 
TimS wrote:
You did a poor job explaining why income inequality is bad.

It's bad because the playing field isn't level. It's bad because those at the top have rigged the game. Do you disagree?

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Jan 10, 2014 11:35:08   #
rrforster12 Loc: Leesburg Florida
 
surfshoptom wrote:
it's bad because that dude is a greedy, selfish bastard.
it's bad because there's nothing good or right about it. it certainly isn't Christian.
it's bad because his workers need food stamps to feed their families. who pays for that? and if you argue food stamps should be eliminated, then those folks would go hungry. is that bad?
are you arguing that dude is paid $15M because he's worth it or because he works 750 times harder than his employees? I argue he's paid that much because he has control. it's not capitalism - it's cronyism. we're living in a plutocracy and it's getting worse.
have I changed any minds? I didn't think so. these arguments are so pointless. I wish I could stay away and wasn't provoked to respond. I know - so do you.
it's bad because that dude is a greedy, selfish ba... (show quote)


In my opinion, a corporation is free to spend its money in any way that the shareholders approve. If they believe that an individual is worth the incredible salary's that some receive because of the job they are doing then so be it. It is their money! That is not the same situation that we have with government employees at the top level. Congress can, and does continuously vote ITSELF raises with tax payer's money, and our President who seems to have an unlimited and self-determined expense account (which is also tax free for the most part) as does the hierarchy of our Congress. Why was it OK for Pelosi to fly home to Frisco every weekend at a ridiculous cost to taxpayers on a government 767 airliner rather then say a Gulfstream? Simply because she chose to. Rather then being upset by CEO's (who are directly responsible to their Board and Shareholders) we should be directing our ire towards those that actually work for us, and are abusing their positions.
We had a Revolution and supposedly got rid of Royalty, but somehow our leaders have reimposed it all, just under another name.

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Jan 10, 2014 11:51:47   #
surfshoptom
 
rrforster12 wrote:
We had a Revolution and supposedly got rid of Royalty, but somehow our leaders have reimposed it all, just under another name.

Agreed. I think with few or no exceptions, all of Washington is corrupt. They don't work for us. They work for their largest campaign contributors. And they make they make all the rules. It's those rules that make it possible for the folks at the top to stay at the top and further distance themselves from the poor and middle class. It's not capitalism. It's not fair.

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Jan 10, 2014 11:59:05   #
Bruce with a Canon Loc: Islip
 
The army has EQUAL PAY.
an E1 makes the same as ALL E1, irrespective of how hard you work or how much you skate.

Those that work hard get promoted to E2, and E3 and so on.

People thqat earn minumin wage can increase their income by working harder, smarter, demonstrating initiative, taking on extra responsibilities

If you earn min wage iyt is because you aint WORTH paying more

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Jan 10, 2014 12:06:21   #
rhitmrb Loc: Portland, OR
 
Bruce with a Canon wrote:
The army has EQUAL PAY.
an E1 makes the same as ALL E1, irrespective of how hard you work or how much you skate.

Those that work hard get promoted to E2, and E3 and so on.

People thqat earn minumin wage can increase their income by working harder, smarter, demonstrating initiative, taking on extra responsibilities

If you earn min wage iyt is because you aint WORTH paying more


The minimum wage has not kept pace with what Americans produce.



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Jan 10, 2014 13:01:51   #
TimS Loc: GA
 
surfshoptom wrote:
It's bad because the playing field isn't level. It's bad because those at the top have rigged the game. Do you disagree?


Yes. I believe the playing field IS level. It's just that some of us are better at playing on that field than others.

I was reading a story on yahoo the other day of a 15 year old girl who started a business selling blinged out sandals a couple years ago. Her sales last year were several million dollars. She is set for life because of her ingenuity, ambition, and (to a certain extent) luck.

In this country, you are only limited by yourself. In this country, kids growing up in the ghetto can (and do) become multi millionaires by doing something well (like sports and music). In this country, a janitor can walk onto a baseball team and wind up being an MLB rookie sensation and secure the starting catcher position on an MLB team (E. Gattis). Or a poor girl living out of a car with her mom singing in bars just to survive could become a successful musician (Jewel). Or a kid without a college education could become head of one of a business with enough cash reserves to bail out the entire country of Greece (S. Jobs).

So, yes, I disagree. Perhaps you can help me out by educating me how I am wrong.

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Jan 10, 2014 13:06:31   #
rhitmrb Loc: Portland, OR
 
TimS wrote:
Yes. I believe the playing field IS level. It's just that some of us are better at playing on that field than others.

I was reading a story on yahoo the other day of a 15 year old girl who started a business selling blinged out sandals a couple years ago. Her sales last year were several million dollars. She is set for life because of her ingenuity, ambition, and (to a certain extent) luck.

In this country, you are only limited by yourself. In this country, kids growing up in the ghetto can (and do) become multi millionaires by doing something well (like sports and music). In this country, a janitor can walk onto a baseball team and wind up being an MLB rookie sensation and secure the starting catcher position on an MLB team (E. Gattis). Or a poor girl living out of a car with her mom singing in bars just to survive could become a successful musician (Jewel). Or a kid without a college education could become head of one of a business with enough cash reserves to bail out the entire country of Greece (S. Jobs).

So, yes, I disagree. Perhaps you can help me out by educating me how I am wrong.
Yes. I believe the playing field IS level. It's ju... (show quote)


You could start by recognizing that these anecdotes are the exception rather than the rule.

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Jan 10, 2014 13:08:06   #
rrforster12 Loc: Leesburg Florida
 
rhitmrb wrote:
The minimum wage has not kept pace with what Americans produce.


Actually, the productivity chart reflects the degree of automation and computerization that has been introduced over the years, and has very little to do with the productivity of those at the lower end of the wage scale. The minimum wage is reserved for those that are capable of, or provide only minimum relative productivity. This is not meant to put the low-end workers down, it's just the way the value system works. Raise the minimum wages paid and all other wages will inevitable rise by a comparative percentage. Again inevitably, when the cost of production rises, the cost of goods and services rise. (inflation)
Inflation is ONLY good for the government. Thats because since the government takes a percentage of all wages, its "take" rises commensurately, and as it prefers, rather stealthily. Unfortunately, for the worker, it is like a dog chasing its tail. It can never catch up.

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Jan 10, 2014 13:10:02   #
rhitmrb Loc: Portland, OR
 
rrforster12 wrote:
Actually, the productivity chart reflects the degree of automation and computerization that has been introduced over the years, and has very little to do with the productivity of those at the lower end of the wage scale. The minimum wage is reserved for those that are capable of, or provide only minimum relative productivity. This is not meant to put the low-end workers down, it's just the way the value system works. Raise the minimum wages paid and all other wages will inevitable rise by a comparative percentage. Again inevitably, when the cost of production rises, the cost of goods and services rise. (inflation)
Inflation is ONLY good for the government. Thats because since the government takes a percentage of all wages, its "take" rises commensurately, and as it prefers, rather stealthily. Unfortunately, for the worker, it is like a dog chasing its tail. It can never catch up.
Actually, the productivity chart reflects the degr... (show quote)


I have never gotten a raise because of an increase in the minimum wage.

Inflation is good for everybody - it encourages people to invest, rather than store money in bank accounts doing nothing. It does have some negative effects, which need to be balanced, like by raising the minimum wage to match.

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Jan 10, 2014 13:20:45   #
TimS Loc: GA
 
rhitmrb wrote:
You could start by recognizing that these anecdotes are the exception rather than the rule.


Seeing as there are not a heck of a lot of uber wealth people, sports stars, musicians, and actors are not an insignificant portion of the total number of millionaires on this country.

But if they are the exception then kindly describe what the rule is.

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Jan 10, 2014 13:21:52   #
rhitmrb Loc: Portland, OR
 
TimS wrote:
Seeing as there are not a heck of a lot of uber wealth people, sports stars, musicians, and actors are not an insignificant portion of the total number of millionaires on this country.

But if they are the exception then kindly describe what the rule is.


The rule is that class mobility is lower than it has ever been in the history of this country.

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Jan 10, 2014 13:37:26   #
Twardlow Loc: Arkansas
 
surfshoptom wrote:
the fundamental difference is not between you and me or him and her. it's not about the guy who makes $100K. it's about the CEO that make 400 times what his workers make. it's about the top 1% whose incomes continue to rise at a 20% rate while everyone else struggles to keep a job or find a job at a decent wage. it's about corporations that pay no income tax and upper management who pay a smaller percentage than their secretaries. it's about legal corruption when our representatives work for their top campaign contributors instead of the folks that voted for them. it's not about left or right - it's about all of them.
the fundamental difference is not between you and ... (show quote)




A B S O L U T E L Y !!!!!!!!!

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Jan 10, 2014 13:58:47   #
surfshoptom
 
TimS wrote:
... kindly describe what the rule is.

Between 1979 and 2007, after tax income grew by:
275% for the top 1%
65% for the next 19%
40% for the next 60%
18% for the bottom 20%
...
in 2012, income grew by:
20% for the top 1%
1% for the next 99%
....the gap between the richest 1 percent and the remaining 99 percent is the widest it's been since the 1920s.
This is not the result of a level playing field. It's the result of legal corruption. It's laws which favor corporate profits and the wealthy.

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Jan 10, 2014 14:19:14   #
Bruce with a Canon Loc: Islip
 
surfshoptom wrote:
Between 1979 and 2007, after tax income grew by:
275% for the top 1%
65% for the next 19%
40% for the next 60%
18% for the bottom 20%
...
in 2012, income grew by:
20% for the top 1%
1% for the next 99%
....the gap between the richest 1 percent and the remaining 99 percent is the widest it's been since the 1920s.
This is not the result of a level playing field. It's the result of legal corruption. It's laws which favor corporate profits and the wealthy.


your government at work, think SPECIAL INTEREST, you know, like Obama giving UNIONS exepmtions form the laws WE must abide by.

Stop special interest, replace it with NATIONAL interest, things will change

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Jan 10, 2014 14:32:31   #
BW326 Loc: Boynton Beach, Florida
 
TimS wrote:
Yes. I believe the playing field IS level. It's just that some of us are better at playing on that field than others.

I was reading a story on yahoo the other day of a 15 year old girl who started a business selling blinged out sandals a couple years ago. Her sales last year were several million dollars. She is set for life because of her ingenuity, ambition, and (to a certain extent) luck.

In this country, you are only limited by yourself. In this country, kids growing up in the ghetto can (and do) become multi millionaires by doing something well (like sports and music). In this country, a janitor can walk onto a baseball team and wind up being an MLB rookie sensation and secure the starting catcher position on an MLB team (E. Gattis). Or a poor girl living out of a car with her mom singing in bars just to survive could become a successful musician (Jewel). Or a kid without a college education could become head of one of a business with enough cash reserves to bail out the entire country of Greece (S. Jobs).

So, yes, I disagree. Perhaps you can help me out by educating me how I am wrong.
Yes. I believe the playing field IS level. It's ju... (show quote)


You should also add,

Or "you could become a multi-millionaire by buying a $1 lottery ticket and guessing all the numbers right."

Your initial premise is right, you are more likely to get ahead by showing perseverance, working hard, and applying yourself at your job (and luck and personal connections has much more to do with it than successful people like to admit), but the bottom line is that for the average person, the playing field isn't equal so you better prepare yourself for that reality as well.

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