Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Check out Astronomical Photography Forum section of our forum.
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
What Should We Do About Climate Change ?
Page <<first <prev 8 of 29 next> last>>
Jul 24, 2013 21:42:59   #
DennisK Loc: Pickle City,Illinois
 
TrainNut wrote:
Now I am really worried. :shock: :cry: :cry: :cry:


lol

Reply
Jul 24, 2013 22:08:01   #
Reddog Loc: Southern Calif
 
Screamin Scott wrote:
So, is MSNBC is any more "accurate" in what they report?..


Actually a lot more accurate but just as jaded to the other side!

Reply
Jul 24, 2013 22:09:49   #
Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA
 
Long live MSNBC !


Reddog wrote:
Actually a lot more accurate but just as jaded to the other side!

Reply
 
 
Jul 24, 2013 22:49:29   #
Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.
 
Richard94611 wrote:
Long live MSNBC !


Here is what I consider to be a reasonable article on Climate Change... Bjorn Lomborg.

Quote:
In his second inaugural address on Monday, President Obama laudably promised to "respond to the threat of climate change." Unfortunately, when the president described the urgent nature of the threat—the "devastating impact of raging fires, and crippling drought, and more powerful storms"—the scary examples suggested that he is contemplating poor policies that don't point to any real, let alone smart, solutions. Global warming is a problem that needs fixing, but exaggeration doesn't help, and it often distracts us from simple, cheaper and smarter solutions.

For starters, let's address the three horsemen of the climate apocalypse that Mr. Obama mentioned.

Historical analysis of wildfires around the world shows that since 1950 their numbers have decreased globally by 15%. Estimates published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences show that even with global warming proceeding uninterrupted, the level of wildfires will continue to decline until around midcentury and won't resume on the level of 1950—the worst for fire—before the end of the century.

Claiming that droughts are a consequence of global warming is also wrong. The world has not seen a general increase in drought. A study published in Nature in November shows globally that "there has been little change in drought over the past 60 years." The U.N. Climate Panel in 2012 concluded: "Some regions of the world have experienced more intense and longer droughts, in particular in southern Europe and West Africa, but in some regions droughts have become less frequent, less intense, or shorter, for example, in central North America and northwestern Australia."

As for one of the favorites of alarmism, hurricanes in recent years don't indicate that storms are getting worse. Measured by total energy (Accumulated Cyclone Energy), hurricane activity is at a low not encountered since the 1970s. The U.S. is currently experiencing the longest absence of severe landfall hurricanes in over a century—the last Category 3 or stronger storm was Wilma, more than seven years ago.

While it is likely that we will see somewhat stronger (but fewer) storms as climate change continues, a March 2012 Nature study shows that the global damage cost from hurricanes will go to 0.02% of gross domestic product annually in 2100 from 0.04% today—a drop of 50%, despite global warming.

This does not mean that climate change isn't an issue. It means that exaggerating the threat concentrates resources in the wrong areas. Consider hurricanes (though similar points hold for wildfire and drought). If the aim is to reduce storm damage, then first focus on resilience—better building codes and better enforcement of those codes. Ending subsidies for hurricane insurance to discourage building in vulnerable zones would also help, as would investing in better infrastructure (from stronger levees to higher-capacity sewers).

These solutions are quick and comparatively cheap. Most important, they would diminish future hurricane damage, whether climate-induced or not. Had New York and New Jersey focused resources on building sea walls and adding storm doors to the subway system and making simple fixes like porous pavements, Hurricane Sandy would have caused much less damage.

In the long run, the world needs to cut carbon dioxide because it causes global warming. But if the main effort to cut emissions is through subsidies for chic renewables like wind and solar power, virtually no good will be achieved—at very high cost. The cost of climate policies just for the European Union—intended to reduce emissions by 2020 to 20% below 1990 levels—are estimated at about $250 billion annually. And the benefits, when estimated using a standard climate model, will reduce temperature only by an immeasurable one-tenth of a degree Fahrenheit by the end of the century.

Even in 2035, with the most optimistic scenario, the International Energy Agency estimates that just 2.4% of the world's energy will come from wind and only 1% from solar. As is the case today, almost 80% will still come from fossil fuels. As long as green energy is more expensive than fossil fuels, growing consumer markets like those in China and India will continue to use them, despite what well-meaning but broke Westerners try to do.

Instead of pouring money into subsidies and direct production support of existing, inefficient green energy, President Obama should focus on dramatically ramping up investments into the research and development of green energy. Put another way, it is the difference between supporting an inexpensive researcher who will discover more efficient, future solar panels—and supporting a Solyndra at great expense to produce lots of inefficient, present-technology solar panels.

When innovation eventually makes green energy cheaper, everyone will implement it, including the Chinese. Such a policy would likely do 500 times more good per dollar invested than current subsidy schemes. But first let's drop the fear-mongering exaggeration—and then focus on innovation.
In his second inaugural address on Monday, Preside... (show quote)



Another of his articles addressing proposals by the president.


Quote:
President Obama's new climate policies outlined Tuesday include both brilliant and useless ideas. The confusion stems from Obama's unwillingness to confront three climate fantasies:

Renewables are a major part of the solution today. No, they are almost trivial. Today, the world gets 81% of its energy from fossil fuels – by 2035, in the most green scenario, we will still get 79% from fossil fuels. Wind and solar will increase from 0.8% to 3.2% -- impressive, but not what is going to matter.

Biofuels should play a major part of the solution. No. For now, biofuels simply diverts food into cars, driving up food prices and starvation, while clearing forests for new fields emit more CO2 than biofuels save.

Efficiency can cut emissions. No. While efficiency is good, studies show it has little climate impact, because its savings gets eaten up by more use. As your car gets more efficient, you drive it further, and the money you still save get used for other carbon-emitting activities.
But carefully implemented, Obama's plan also shows the way to the three climate truths.

Fracking is this decade's green solution. Obama recognizes gas as a "bridge fuel." Replacing dirtier coal, cheaper gas from fracking has cut up to 500 MT of the U.S. CO2 emissions. This is 10 times more than what renewables do, and while renewables cost the U.S. tens of billions of dollars, fracking has saved the U.S. consumer $125 billion annually in cheaper energy prices. Fracking has local environmental issues, but these can all be addressed with good regulation. Moving the U.S. fracking miracle to the rest of the world will be the biggest source of CO2 reductions this decade, and simultaneously increase global welfare by allowing energy access to billions yet unserved.

Adaptation is smart, and Obama is right to stress it. Wet-lands, tidal barriers and subway caps could dramatically have reduced hurricane Sandy's impact, irrespective of how little global warming impacted the hurricane. There are many more, smart and cheap solutions here to real world problems.

Finally, we need innovation in long-term green energy, which the president suggests to fund with $7.9 billion for fiscal 2014. As long as green energy is much more expensive than fossil fuels, it will always remain a niche, subsidized by rich countries to feel good. But if innovation makes future green energy sources cheaper than fossil fuels everyone will switch. Just like the 30-year Energy Department research into fracking made cleaner gas cheaper than coal and produced a historic US CO2 reduction, twice that of the European Union/Kyoto reduction.

The final climate fantasy the president needs to confront is the idea that international negotiations can somehow bring about meaningful cuts. We've tried this for more than 20 years and failed and we will fail again in 2015 in Paris. More than 180 countries won't meaningfully reduce CO2 emissions from the fossil fuels that power their economic growth.

The president should instead ask the rest of the world to follow the U.S. lead on green innovation. Economic models show that this is by far the best, long-term climate policy. If we all invested far more to innovate down the cost of future green energy, we could outcompete fossil fuels faster and truly solve global warming.
President Obama's new climate policies outlined Tu... (show quote)

Reply
Jul 24, 2013 23:23:02   #
RixPix Loc: Miami, Florida
 
Screamin Scott wrote:
Our job creators did that? I hardly think so...It's more the constant increase in wages, benefits & cost of ever increasing government regulations that has driven them to find cheaper ways to make the products that our citizens demand at the prices they want to pay...Not that profits don't figure into the equation, because they do, but to lay the blame entirely at the feet of business only shows a lack of intelligence as to how business works...


Have you ever been to Germany? I mean since the war. Germany has thriving German manufacturing because they place tariffs on the imported goods to keep the prices in line with the same goods manufactured in Germany. You can go to a store to buy say a Patio umbrella. At the store you'll see an assortment of patio umbrellas...some made in Germany, some made in China, some made in Turkey. I was there, this was my experience. They are priced about the same...maybe a two or three Euro difference in the prices. No big deal right? Well, it is because Germany put its workers and companies fiscal health first. Here in America, you have to look very hard to find domestically produced items period. All those jobs went away. Instead of raising wages so workers could afford to buy American made goods, the job creators found cheaper goods then they realized they didn't need any workers and here we are in an economy where corporate profits are higher than they have ever been. The American worker was robbed of the American Dream, the American Family, was robbed of its future all in the name of quick and easy profits. You say wages were to high...wrong they weren't high enough to buy the goods...Henry Ford knew that 100 years ago he had to pay his workers enough to afford his cars. That goes across the board...people need to earn enough to buy the things produced here. We were sold a bill of cheap goods that cost jobs and futures.

Reply
Jul 25, 2013 00:31:57   #
Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA
 
What amazes me is that all the presidents we have had for decades who were pushing "free trade" and lack of tarifs should have realized what our situation would become. For instance, Clinton is one. Maybe all our presidents did realize this but were simply in bed with corporations.


RixPix wrote:
Have you ever been to Germany? I mean since the war. Germany has thriving German manufacturing because they place tariffs on the imported goods to keep the prices in line with the same goods manufactured in Germany. You can go to a store to buy say a Patio umbrella. At the store you'll see an assortment of patio umbrellas...some made in Germany, some made in China, some made in Turkey. I was there, this was my experience. They are priced about the same...maybe a two or three Euro difference in the prices. No big deal right? Well, it is because Germany put its workers and companies fiscal health first. Here in America, you have to look very hard to find domestically produced items period. All those jobs went away. Instead of raising wages so workers could afford to buy American made goods, the job creators found cheaper goods then they realized they didn't need any workers and here we are in an economy where corporate profits are higher than they have ever been. The American worker was robbed of the American Dream, the American Family, was robbed of its future all in the name of quick and easy profits. You say wages were to high...wrong they weren't high enough to buy the goods...Henry Ford knew that 100 years ago he had to pay his workers enough to afford his cars. That goes across the board...people need to earn enough to buy the things produced here. We were sold a bill of cheap goods that cost jobs and futures.
Have you ever been to Germany? I mean since the w... (show quote)

Reply
Jul 25, 2013 00:45:02   #
Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.
 
Richard94611 wrote:
What amazes me is that all the presidents we have had for decades who were pushing "free trade" and lack of tarifs should have realized what our situation would become. For instance, Clinton is one. Maybe all our presidents did realize this but were simply in bed with corporations.


It is late on this side of the country and I really don't have the energy to go into the downside of tariffs, but they are not necessarily the holy grail, but at the same time we should have never exported our manufacturing to the extent that we have, but it is not all about China, there is opportunity to revive our manufacturing, but government has to make that its goal and set policies that are conducive to achieving them if it is ever to happen. If government wants to war against business in this country then it will never come back, but for those of you who think it can't I would ask, why are Hondas, Toyotas, BMWs Volkswagon, Kia, Nissan..... all manufacturing here?

Reply
Check out Bridge Camera Show Case section of our forum.
Jul 25, 2013 02:35:27   #
wings42 Loc: San Diego, CA
 
Richard94611 wrote:
Should we have strong FEDERAL action to protect us from the worst effects of climate change ? Or should we leave this to the states ? When climate change causes massive storms that decimate cities and counties, should the Federal Government help people there get back on their feet ?

Some of the folks who expressed real dislike of the federal government were certainly happy to have federal help after disaster hit them. (They have principles -- but these can be bought.)


Just be cool!

Reply
Jul 25, 2013 02:41:31   #
Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA
 
I am certainly no expert about tariffs. In fact I no little about them and their effects. But it seemed very logical to me at the time that if you make it possible for products from other countries that are manufactured much more inexpensively than we can do it (partly because of labor costs), people would buy the foreign imports. not the domestically-produced goods.

I knew someone who worked in a management position for GM for about 23 years, and he insisted that most of the management folks for our domestic car companies were so isolated they had no clue what the American people really wanted. He said he knew that when he was working for them. It is also true that many of the foreign-produced cars were simply made better and of much higher quality than hat our companies were turning out. That quality of the Japanese cars made it almost impossible for American manufacturers to compete.

At least that what it has seemed like to me.



Blurryeyed wrote:
It is late on this side of the country and I really don't have the energy to go into the downside of tariffs, but they are not necessarily the holy grail, but at the same time we should have never exported our manufacturing to the extent that we have, but it is not all about China, there is opportunity to revive our manufacturing, but government has to make that its goal and set policies that are conducive to achieving them if it is ever to happen. If government wants to war against business in this country then it will never come back, but for those of you who think it can't I would ask, why are Hondas, Toyotas, BMWs Volkswagon, Kia, Nissan..... all manufacturing here?
It is late on this side of the country and I reall... (show quote)

Reply
Jul 25, 2013 03:45:51   #
Caldian Loc: Crystal Lake, Michigan & traveling
 
pounder35 wrote:
If there was a definite cure. Sure. But medicinal treatments are often experimental and the results are not known for years. Sometimes the treatment works and sometimes not. Sometimes the treatment is worse than the disease. BTW, you might want to keep up with MSNBC in case the inbred baby gets a name. I know I'll loose sleep over it. :thumbup:


Actually Kate is a former "commoner" and not a descendant of one of Europes related families so the future King George is not inbred!

Reply
Jul 25, 2013 03:54:38   #
jmdusty Loc: greater DaytonOh. area
 
When "Global Warming" got shot down due it doesn't exist as such, the powers that be decided to rename it "Climate Change". It is about as big a scam as "Canser causing adgents". There are ONLY 3 things that control the climate on any planet in our solar system: Solar activity (or lack there of) Gravity and volcanic activity.We are now in the 24th solar cycle and it has been dwindling for several decades. We just came through the coldest spring in recorded history. The spring of 1973 had held the record and "the powers that be" wanted to put ashes on the polar caps to ward off "Global Cooling". Even though there are those that think this one may have a second peak, it is still one of the lowest solar activity periods in several decades. As to canser, there is no known element, mineral, compound or man made chemical that can "cause" canser. You can't grow one in a peatre dish in a lab. Canser geans are just a herdetive genetic disorder and if you don't have any one of the 323 known canser geans you can not "catch" that canser. The one thing medical science still doesn't know is how or why a given canser can skip a generation and then single out a sibling in the next one, but not effect the rest of that generation.

Dusty

Reply
Check out Wedding Photography section of our forum.
Jul 25, 2013 05:13:10   #
Bunko.T Loc: Western Australia.
 
Richard94611 wrote:
Should we have strong FEDERAL action to protect us from the worst effects of climate change ? Or should we leave this to the states ? When climate change causes massive storms that decimate cities and counties, should the Federal Government help people there get back on their feet ?

Some of the folks who expressed real dislike of the federal government were certainly happy to have federal help after disaster hit them. (They have principles -- but these can be bought.)


Richard I read your other post recently & along with this one I've not heard so much common sense in this forum before.
The global warming denial fraternity will never be convinced unless their dumb heads are going under.
They don't seem to get it that mankind is overloading this little planet with demands on the resources like history has never seen. Oil, Forests, Water, raping the land & just about everything not renewable.
History has never seen so many greedy people either who are responsible for it.
Learned people have been stating the doomsday evidence for years but it falls on ignorant ears.
I also noted your comment about your constitution. How it was written way back in a climate of political, social industrial & religious influence totally out of touch with the pressures of todays society. It should be updated.
I know that I'll probably get the same vitriol as has been afforded you, but hey, I sleep at nite with a free thinking mind.
I enjoyed your post. Pity not more of them are forthcoming in this forum.

Reply
Jul 25, 2013 07:45:22   #
Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.
 
Richard94611 wrote:
I am certainly no expert about tariffs. In fact I no little about them and their effects. But it seemed very logical to me at the time that if you make it possible for products from other countries that are manufactured much more inexpensively than we can do it (partly because of labor costs), people would buy the foreign imports. not the domestically-produced goods.

I knew someone who worked in a management position for GM for about 23 years, and he insisted that most of the management folks for our domestic car companies were so isolated they had no clue what the American people really wanted. He said he knew that when he was working for them. It is also true that many of the foreign-produced cars were simply made better and of much higher quality than hat our companies were turning out. That quality of the Japanese cars made it almost impossible for American manufacturers to compete.

At least that what it has seemed like to me.
I am certainly no expert about tariffs. In fact I... (show quote)


The short of what is bad about tariffs is that it protects manufacturers from competition and increases prices. Rix is right in that it keeps our industry alive and productive, providing jobs etc., and in a time like this that seems very worthwhile, but it also protects industry from competition allowing them to set artificially high prices and become less competitive and effectively managed. One can afford to be fat and lazy and even produce inferior products when the government is protecting your market, and that has often been the effect of tariffs. Protected industries have less motivation to keep up with and lead in technologies that would enhance their products, they have less incentive to concern themselves with quality and lastly they do not have to feel price pressure as imported goods of higher quality produced at lower prices for the consumer will have their price points raised by governmental taxation before reaching the consumer market. Consumers end up paying more for the same goods than they otherwise would have and often are buying goods of lessor quality while paying a larger portion of their income for those goods....

Like I said earlier, our manufacturing should have never been outsourced to the extent that it has been, but for those thinking that tariffs are a good answer they should think through that there is a downside which will first manifest itself in higher prices and then will eventually lead to protected markets producing expensive goods of lessor quality. The cost is born by the consumer as they pay more of their income for the same level of consumption.

Rix brings up a salient point, in how can our economy survive if we are not producing goods for exchange? This has long been my question as we have outsourced production, we certainly can't have an economy that produces nothing of value, only consumption. An economy is heavily dependent on producing goods for exchange, if you produce nothing of value what do you have to offer your trading partners? Our paper money at some point will become worthless as it is no longer supported by economic contribution to the world's economy. But tariffs are a slippery slope that hurt consumers and especially lower income consumers, I have to believe that there are other ways that we can become attractive to manufacturers...

Reply
Jul 25, 2013 07:47:44   #
DennisK Loc: Pickle City,Illinois
 
RixPix wrote:
Have you ever been to Germany? I mean since the war. Germany has thriving German manufacturing because they place tariffs on the imported goods to keep the prices in line with the same goods manufactured in Germany. You can go to a store to buy say a Patio umbrella. At the store you'll see an assortment of patio umbrellas...some made in Germany, some made in China, some made in Turkey. I was there, this was my experience. They are priced about the same...maybe a two or three Euro difference in the prices. No big deal right? Well, it is because Germany put its workers and companies fiscal health first. Here in America, you have to look very hard to find domestically produced items period. All those jobs went away. Instead of raising wages so workers could afford to buy American made goods, the job creators found cheaper goods then they realized they didn't need any workers and here we are in an economy where corporate profits are higher than they have ever been. The American worker was robbed of the American Dream, the American Family, was robbed of its future all in the name of quick and easy profits. You say wages were to high...wrong they weren't high enough to buy the goods...Henry Ford knew that 100 years ago he had to pay his workers enough to afford his cars. That goes across the board...people need to earn enough to buy the things produced here. We were sold a bill of cheap goods that cost jobs and futures.
Have you ever been to Germany? I mean since the w... (show quote)


Damn man.You posted something that I totally agree with.For the love of God,stop it!! :-D :-D

Reply
Jul 25, 2013 09:21:17   #
jcjr8
 
Ron K. wrote:
That sounds logical to me. On the other hand, it could be due to bovine flatulence.


I'm going with flatulence. After all you can't eat a car to fix the problem.

Reply
Page <<first <prev 8 of 29 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Check out AI Artistry and Creation section of our forum.
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.