GHK Loc: The Vale of Eden

[quote=CaptainC]

Just desaturation usually give a pretty-much bland result and no way to control how specific colors are rendered. There are MANY ways to make good B&W conversions. Grayscale and desaturation are the two worst.
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DEFINITELY work from a colour image. If you use the camera B/W setting the camera discards the colour information without giving you any say in what is happening. If you work from a colour image, then you are the one who makes the decisions.

I agree completely with CapC about the blandness of straight desaturation. In my opinion it is THE worst method. I was told, many years ago, that Grayscale was as bad as Desat and accepted this verdict without making any real checks of my own. It was some years later that, because the number of published B/W conversion methods was into double figures, I decided to investigate the whole subject in depth.
I set two criteria:
1) The tones produced by the initial conversion must be the same as (or as nearly so as possible) those in the colour version, i.e. the tones as expressed in the HSB readout.
2) The initial result must be editable.

In making initial conversions using published methods, I found wide variations from my target. Not surprisingly Desaturation results were poor, as were several others, including the oft recommended Channel Mixer.
Only one method gave a perfect match, and that, to my surprise, was the much derided Grayscale.
This did not provide an immediate solution because a simple Grayscale conversion destroys all colour information and cannot, therefore, be edited in the way that was necessary.
My task, therefore, was to find a way of using Grayscale that produced an editable result. It took me about four months, and a number of blind alleys, before I eventually got what I wanted. I am now able to produce a conversion which has the desired tonal equivalents, but which I can edit taking into account the colour characteristics. The latter is vital because a theoretically perfect tonal conversion may not give the best final result. This is because (8 bit) more than 65,000 colours must be compressed into just 256 tones by the conversion.
Thus, two completely distinct colours which are adjacent in the image can convert as the same B/W tone (e.g. a dark yellow and a pale blue may well do this).

There is quite a bit more to this but I think the above is enough to digest for now.

GHK

CraigB Loc: Albuquerque, NM

Hi PalePictures,
Beautiful images and very good technique and CaptainC as well.

Thanks (both) for sharing your thoughts and techniques.

Years ago, I used a plug-in from Fred Miranda, which did a fairly good job in conversion. I believe it's been renamed B&W workflow, but I have not used it.

Bottom line, it does take time and a good eye to represent B&W properly. I am amazed when I see a desaturated photo being passed off as B&W. To me, it resembles a dead person. No life in the photo and certainly does not approach any film look.

Jersey guy Loc: New Joisey

"Beautiful B&W images are made---they are not taken". So true, PalePictures. Does the name 'Ansel Adams' ring a bell?

sudzmonn Loc: here , there , everywhere

fantastic post ~ great knowledge ~ thanks everyone ~ and the photos back up what your talking about and we can understand what you mean . . .

acellis Loc: Charleston, SC

I am always looking for example workflows for converting my colour to B&W. I use LR4 and PSE 8. Anyone have any sources they suggest?

MagicFad Loc: Clermont, FL

Very good examples and you can see the vast difference in the processes.

emmons267 Loc: Arizona, Valley of the Sun

Although I'm not much of a fan of black and white photos, I have to say that yours are very impressive.

jmsibert Loc: Colorado Springs

The only time I use desaturation is when I'm converting only the background to black and white but maintaining the subject in color.

rps Loc: Muskoka Ontario Canada

Interesting discussion and some awesome shots!
There is a third alternative I find handy and that is partial desaturation, leaving only a hint of colour. It can be effective for some subjects. (Will dig out an example and post later.)
I enjoy doing some B&W but I've never been able to match the gorgeous tones of some of those old high silver content enlarging papers

rps Loc: Muskoka Ontario Canada

Interesting discussion and some awesome shots!
There is a third alternative I find handy and that is partial desaturation, leaving only a hint of colour. It can be effective for some subjects. (Will dig out an example and post later.)
I enjoy doing some B&W but I've never been able to match the gorgeous tones of some of those old high silver content enlarging papers

2 Dog Don Loc: Virginia Beach VA

I am a big fan of black and white if you are not find an old copy of life or look magazine and look at their photos. These days if you had some b&w film to get processed at the local drug store they would process it by desaturating the RGB! Nasty it leaves a blue tint. I like using Photoshop Elements it has a great converter as does Photomatix for processing single images. I have attached both a color and B&W image using elements 11

USS Wisconson

Peter Boyd Loc: Blyth nr. Newcastle U.K.

There are some great answers and pictures in this post, but to get back to the original question, if you shoot B&W in camera you are only working with one channel, whereas if you work on a colour image in software you are using three channels and the quality will always be better.

rps Loc: Muskoka Ontario Canada

Here is the promised example of partial desaturation...just a hint of blue sky and of brown trees.
(This is down river from where we live.)

ole sarg Loc: south florida

OK you guys are very interesting. As a photo editor my shots are generally pretty poor and that is why I now only shoot the family. The members of the clan always oooh and aaaaa over the pics of the kids or of other members.

When shooting as a photojournalist did not worry too much about the quality of the print it was going to be reproduced on news print anyway, but did worry about composition. many of the shots had to be up close and personal.

When I was a photo editor I worried about composition, subject, and did the photo tell a story or illuminate the written word of the story. As a book editor I worried about the photo or graphic enhancing the material.

I come from a different perspective.

But, all that said, Each of the photos presented are well composed, have subjects of interest, convey a message, and can either stand alone or be used in a story.

In short, they are good photographs that are well presented.

jimmya Loc: Phoenix

I always shoot in color and desaturate later and save under a different name. Too many times I've wanted the color version later and oops... I don't have it because I didn't shoot it.