Black and White vs Desaturation
Feb 17, 2013 15:14:34 #
martyleo
Loc: Originally Oklahoma
I would like to hear from some seasoned photographers their opinions about shooting black and white versus desaturating a color photo. Is there a significant difference in quality, contrast and/or anything else that makes a good b & w photo?
Feb 17, 2013 16:56:02 #
While I don't do a lot of B&W I find it better to shoot in color and then convert in Post Processing. In Lightroom I can then tweak the individual color channels or try out several different preset filters which I couldn't do if I had shot B&W in camera.
Feb 17, 2013 16:59:14 #
You don't give us enough information about what you are shooting (subject), what you are shooting (camera) or what you want for results.
If you are shooting with a camera capable of recording RAW, I would recommend desaturating a color photo because of the control you have and the ability to do one-offs like sepia and cyan prints. If you are shooting JPG, I would recommend some test shots of shooting the same subject in B&W and desaturating a color shot.
If you are shooting with a camera capable of recording RAW, I would recommend desaturating a color photo because of the control you have and the ability to do one-offs like sepia and cyan prints. If you are shooting JPG, I would recommend some test shots of shooting the same subject in B&W and desaturating a color shot.
Feb 17, 2013 17:12:35 #
martyleo wrote:
I would like to hear from some seasoned photographers their opinions about shooting black and white versus desaturating a color photo. Is there a significant difference in quality, contrast and/or anything else that makes a good b & w photo?
Just desaturation usually give a pretty-much bland result and no way to control how specific colors are rendered. There are MANY ways to make good B&W conversions. Grayscale and desaturation are the two worst.
Look at the skin in these two. The desaturation version has little depth. The dumbing-down for web display hides how much the difference really is.
Feb 17, 2013 17:33:05 #
photocat
Loc: Atlanta, Ga
Find a copy of VIncent Versace book from Kansas to Oz, he covers a wide variety of ways to convert.
As the Captain has already suggested desaturation is a very bland method and for those who do serious black and white is not a choice they would usually consider.
As the Captain has already suggested desaturation is a very bland method and for those who do serious black and white is not a choice they would usually consider.
Feb 17, 2013 19:33:32 #
photocat wrote:
Find a copy of VIncent Versace book from Kansas to Oz, he covers a wide variety of ways to convert.
As the Captain has already suggested desaturation is a very bland method and for those who do serious black and white is not a choice they would usually consider.
As the Captain has already suggested desaturation is a very bland method and for those who do serious black and white is not a choice they would usually consider.
I find nothing wrong using Topaz B&W effects
Feb 17, 2013 19:51:25 #
warrior wrote:
I find nothing wrong using Topaz B&W effects
photocat wrote:
Find a copy of VIncent Versace book from Kansas to Oz, he covers a wide variety of ways to convert.
As the Captain has already suggested desaturation is a very bland method and for those who do serious black and white is not a choice they would usually consider.
As the Captain has already suggested desaturation is a very bland method and for those who do serious black and white is not a choice they would usually consider.
I find nothing wrong using Topaz B&W effects
That is a good one as is NIK Silver Efex. The B&W converter in Photoshop is good, and there must be a dozen or so other ways better than desaturate or grayscale.
Feb 17, 2013 19:59:04 #
martyleo
Loc: Originally Oklahoma
Thanks to all of you. Your answers generally confirmed what I thought they would. That lets me know what to do to improve some more. I appreciate your help.
Feb 17, 2013 22:51:39 #
Black and white conversions comes in three flavors:
1) Simple conversion--- Bad -- Desaturate -- Grey Scale. B&W PS converstion. -- Results in a very flat non contrasty image.
2) Middle conversion -- Nice general conversion method. Similar to what CLiff's corrected example shows. includes:
A) Plugin conversion -- NIC Silver Effex Pro -- Really good for the average Photographer.
B) Conversion using the channel mixer or B&W conversion manipulating mainly the (Red and Yellow) for portraits.
3) Advanced Conversion. Using a combination of 12 or so methods to convert to black and white. Can take 10-30 layers in photoshop. BLack an whites are "Pulled apart" by using the underlying color and contrast using levels and curves adjustment layers. No plugin needed. This method is as much art as it is photography. Beautiful Black and white images are made --- they are not taken!
Below is a B&W of mine posted on 500PX.com. It made it to the "Popular" category for a few weeks. Advanced conversion techniques by creating separation in the blacks and whites. Cropped tight to help show the detail.
35 Layers in Photoshop.
It's not just a one click technique. You need to go to school. Then you need to be able to catch an expression. You need to know what method(s) to apply to what image.
Here's the link to the uncropped 500px photo:
http://500px.com/photo/24622449
Desaturation within an image works nice for color photos when the desaturation is slight and you add back color overtones.
Here is a photo I took Wednesday using a desaturation with overtones method. I learned this method from a Russian photographer friends of mine. It is still in the popular category on 500px.
http://500px.com/photo/26114491
1) Simple conversion--- Bad -- Desaturate -- Grey Scale. B&W PS converstion. -- Results in a very flat non contrasty image.
2) Middle conversion -- Nice general conversion method. Similar to what CLiff's corrected example shows. includes:
A) Plugin conversion -- NIC Silver Effex Pro -- Really good for the average Photographer.
B) Conversion using the channel mixer or B&W conversion manipulating mainly the (Red and Yellow) for portraits.
3) Advanced Conversion. Using a combination of 12 or so methods to convert to black and white. Can take 10-30 layers in photoshop. BLack an whites are "Pulled apart" by using the underlying color and contrast using levels and curves adjustment layers. No plugin needed. This method is as much art as it is photography. Beautiful Black and white images are made --- they are not taken!
Below is a B&W of mine posted on 500PX.com. It made it to the "Popular" category for a few weeks. Advanced conversion techniques by creating separation in the blacks and whites. Cropped tight to help show the detail.
35 Layers in Photoshop.
It's not just a one click technique. You need to go to school. Then you need to be able to catch an expression. You need to know what method(s) to apply to what image.
Here's the link to the uncropped 500px photo:
http://500px.com/photo/24622449
Desaturation within an image works nice for color photos when the desaturation is slight and you add back color overtones.
Here is a photo I took Wednesday using a desaturation with overtones method. I learned this method from a Russian photographer friends of mine. It is still in the popular category on 500px.
http://500px.com/photo/26114491
GrandFather of a Sailor man
Another one of mine just for fun. Studium and Punctum
Feb 18, 2013 01:01:17 #
Feb 18, 2013 01:30:46 #
martyleo wrote:
Those are awesome! No quick fixes for good photos, huh?
I'm glad you think so. It doesn't come in a bottle.
Everyone's view of awesome is different.
The true test of awesome for me is when I get a full page of votes and favorites on 500px.com(from people that are not my friends). If you start getting the Russians to comment....your stuff is starting to show promise.
Your friends will lie to you about your photos. Thats one thing about Cliff(CaptainC), he's an honest opinion who actually knows what he is talking about. Lot of opinions here. Not many here with photos to back up their opinions. THen you get the ones who produce one photo that's marginal and believe they've cracked the code.(LOL) I get a kick out of reading here at times. It's a nice break from 10 hours behind a monitor this winter.
I can't wait till the weather gets warm again.
Feb 18, 2013 01:52:27 #
OK! Battle of the Conversions!!
Russ is correct for art-type images in which you want (and can afford) to spend some time.I would not use that exact process on women!
But for client work, we have to figure our time is money. IN that case some of the plug-ins do a wonderful job. I agree that you have to massage the presets, but with some practice, good results are certainly available.
This example is the result of NIK Tonal Contrast, NIK Silver Efex with a copper tint. It was a PPA Merit Image a few years ago. I also had to remove a part of a barn. It was not posed.
Russ is correct for art-type images in which you want (and can afford) to spend some time.I would not use that exact process on women!
But for client work, we have to figure our time is money. IN that case some of the plug-ins do a wonderful job. I agree that you have to massage the presets, but with some practice, good results are certainly available.
This example is the result of NIK Tonal Contrast, NIK Silver Efex with a copper tint. It was a PPA Merit Image a few years ago. I also had to remove a part of a barn. It was not posed.
Feb 18, 2013 02:16:14 #
Your the best Captain.
You know I like to play devils advocate.
I can do my Black and white conversion manually faster than most on this site can do them with NIK.. Except when I want them to be 500px quality.
DIfferent techniques for the ladies of course.
Picture 1
Shot taken of Christie - Manual conversion to B&W-- Natural light only. Total shoot time 2 minutes on the street. Edit time around 15 minutes manual conversion. (Most of that was softening the skin.
Picture 2
Composite HDR background with a Neutral density filter. Daughter walked the shadow on the second pass and overlayed in post.
(I actually used NIK Silver Efex for my base.) Extensivley modified after the NIK conversion with levels and curves. Edits around 2-3 hours.
I actually thought this one would do better on 500px.. "Grandfather of a Sailor Man" outperformed this one by a lot.
:D
You know I like to play devils advocate.
I can do my Black and white conversion manually faster than most on this site can do them with NIK.. Except when I want them to be 500px quality.
DIfferent techniques for the ladies of course.
Picture 1
Shot taken of Christie - Manual conversion to B&W-- Natural light only. Total shoot time 2 minutes on the street. Edit time around 15 minutes manual conversion. (Most of that was softening the skin.
Picture 2
Composite HDR background with a Neutral density filter. Daughter walked the shadow on the second pass and overlayed in post.
(I actually used NIK Silver Efex for my base.) Extensivley modified after the NIK conversion with levels and curves. Edits around 2-3 hours.
I actually thought this one would do better on 500px.. "Grandfather of a Sailor Man" outperformed this one by a lot.
:D
Christie
I walk the line
Feb 18, 2013 02:43:58 #
Now Captain,
I'm 3 up on you. My archive goes back pretty far.
A little old school studio conversion.
I'm 3 up on you. My archive goes back pretty far.
A little old school studio conversion.
Feb 18, 2013 06:16:05 #
PalePictures, those pics are absolutly beautiful!! Although I'm really not qualifid as a B&W expert, I was very taken by these shots. And your Daughter is a great model as well as beautiful. Thank you for the treat!! (And you are right about "Captin C". Thanks again. Boone
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