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Raw versus JPEG print quality
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Feb 7, 2013 06:28:30   #
GHK Loc: The Vale of Eden
 
bunuweld wrote:
GHK wrote:
bunuweld wrote:
clansman wrote:
Hallo, I have followed UHH for a while and much enjoy the humour fuelled by experience, especially the casual ripostes. I have recently discovered how to print RAW without JPG-ing it. Question : will the RAW print contain more quality than the JPG one, please, where the Jpg has not been tweaked too much, and the RAW has been brought to its best ?
Apologies if I am suffering from more ignorance than usual, but if there's one other who needs the answer as well, then I feel justified. Many thanks
Hallo, I have followed UHH for a while and much en... (show quote)


I prefer to convert to JPEG or TIFF depending on circumstances. See no advantage of printing RAWs. See:

http://www.photoreview.com.au/tips/outputting/printing-raw-files
quote=clansman Hallo, I have followed UHH for a w... (show quote)


You CAN'T PRINT RAW. If you could, the result would look terrible. Raw is a linear format and it MUST be converted to a logarithmic one (eg. PSD) before printing.
You never actually see a Raw image either. When you open a Raw image, what you see on screen is a log conversion and is quite different; the Raw is still there in the background (in memory) but you never see it.

GHK
quote=bunuweld quote=clansman Hallo, I have foll... (show quote)




GHK, I assumed from the initial statement of " .....recently discovered how to print RAW without JPG-ing it...." that he is opening the RAW picture directly from the Adobe RAW converter as a Smart Object, which still contains some raw data as I understand it. It makes no difference to me because i have never thought of even trying printing in other than the usual way for obvious reasons. Perhaps you have some better information about the smart object difference.
quote=GHK quote=bunuweld quote=clansman Hallo, ... (show quote)


I agree with your basic assumption, but surely, if the opened, on screen image comes vie the Adobe Raw converter, then it will be in the Photoshop format, PSD. Certainly,I always save it as a PSD.

GHK

Reply
Feb 7, 2013 09:24:15   #
GHK Loc: The Vale of Eden
 
OldBobD wrote:
I doubt very much that you are printing a RAW file. If you are printing from an application such as Photoshop, I'm sure it is converting to JPEG to print. Since there are so many different flavors of RAW, you would need a new printer driver each time a new version would come out. When I click on a RAW file in Windows there is not even an option to print (or view) it.


Most of the above is true and very important.
The conversion, however, will be to PSD not JPG.
The way to get round the different flavours problem is to convert the camera maker's version of Raw to DNG Raw as soon as it is downloaded. The DNG will then open without any of the problems which occur all too frequently, and cad can then be processed like any other Raw file.
Your point that your Raw dialogue does not offer am option to print is key to understanding of the whole business. As I have stated elsewhere (far too often, but it keeps cropping up) Raw formant are not worth printing because they differ FUNDAMENTALLY from PSD, JPG, etc., and the result would be totally unrealistic. For this reason the facility to print the is not made available.

GHK

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Feb 7, 2013 09:26:46   #
GHK Loc: The Vale of Eden
 
What happens? Your program is converting the RAW file into a form that can be seen on the computer, and also converted to a form that the printer can understand so that it can print it for you.

Whether you save this conversion for future use, in some standard format, such as JPEG or TIFF, is up to you.[/quote]

I fully agreewith almost all the above, but would always save as PSD.

GHK

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Feb 7, 2013 09:52:55   #
TheeGambler Loc: The green pastures of Northeast Texas
 
Nic42 wrote:
Having Googled the subject, the general concensus is that tiff files are the best for printing.


My priinter said that Tiff is just compacted Jpegs and they like to print pegs.

What do other printers say?

Reply
Feb 9, 2013 02:52:48   #
marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL
 
clansman wrote:
Charles,
Thanks for yours. I agree re the difference or lack of it. I suppose RAW is there just to give the best chance of the best pic, in some cases as a back-up. If you get it right, or adequate, for your purposes in JPG then no more action needed. My reason for asking was that I assume there are more pixels to be used in RAW as opposed to JPG.
I use a canon Pro 9000 Mk11 which has plummeted in price since the new Pro 1 arrived. The 9000 was recommended as tops but only for colour glossies, and it is. I have an older 6650 for B&W and text. The 9000 is good up to A3Plus too when needed. But I stick mainly to A4 on the basis that a good big one is better than a good small one. (It is also easier to see at my age!)
Charles, br Thanks for yours. I agree ... (show quote)


Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information. While RAW is real data and a JPG includes a percentage of fake recreated pixels, the number of pixels is still the same.

In either case, if you create a file that is 300 ppi per inch horizontally and vertically, the file you print is going to have more ppi than a home printer can print when converted to dots per inch anyway. So a RAW file that has been converted to another format like TIFF or JPG or whatever for printing purposes or a JPG should be so similar (assuming you haven't opened and saved the JPG a lot of times) when printed that you likely won't be able to tell the difference between them.

Reply
Feb 9, 2013 07:51:02   #
GHK Loc: The Vale of Eden
 
[quote=marcomarks

Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information. While RAW is real data and a JPG includes a percentage of fake recreated pixels, the number of pixels is still the same.

In either case, if you create a file that is 300 ppi per inch horizontally and vertically, the file you print is going to have more ppi than a home printer can print when converted to dots per inch anyway. So a RAW file that has been converted to another format like TIFF or JPG or whatever for printing purposes or a JPG should be so similar (assuming you haven't opened and saved the JPG a lot of times) when printed that you likely won't be able to tell the difference between them.[/quote]
----------------------------------------------
Oh dear no; you are missing the whole point.

GHK

Reply
Feb 9, 2013 07:51:33   #
clansman Loc: wendover,england
 
Hallo Marcomarks, Thanks for yours. So unless the JPG shot on its own (ie perhaps as part of a RAW&JPG combination)is really good, then the RAW processed can surpass it. The processed RAW which becomes a second JPG should then be better than the original JPG, and thus will produce a better print. This without retaining more pixels(myy riginal query)where I thought the extra quality or depth of colour would come from.i was wrong to think this. It is all down to the processing, and perhaps a half -decent pic to start with! Many thanks.

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Feb 9, 2013 13:02:15   #
marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL
 
clansman wrote:
Hallo Marcomarks, Thanks for yours. So unless the JPG shot on its own (ie perhaps as part of a RAW&JPG combination)is really good, then the RAW processed can surpass it. The processed RAW which becomes a second JPG should then be better than the original JPG, and thus will produce a better print. This without retaining more pixels(myy riginal query)where I thought the extra quality or depth of colour would come from.i was wrong to think this. It is all down to the processing, and perhaps a half -decent pic to start with! Many thanks.
Hallo Marcomarks, Thanks for yours. So unless th... (show quote)


Well... RAW gives you superior ability to tweak the fine details of your photo, thus you could feasibly come up with a better quality file to print, especially after some practice at working with RAW files and some versatile software. Those who have been doing RAW for a while are loyal because they have control of everything instead of depending on the camera to do it. This means they are producing better files that obviously produce better prints too.

JPG out of the camera is a "best guess" process that uses artificial intelligence to come up with a photo that is ready to look at, or even print (directly from the card in certain home printers), immediately so "pretty good" processing has been done for you in-camera. One compression of the JPG has already happened as it went onto the memory card but it's a "fine" compression with such a miniscule amount of loss that you wouldn't notice.

What I've noticed most with RAW versus JPG out of the camera is that the in-camera JPG processing is more likely to "blow out" a bright part of the photo in an attempt to retain detail in shadows so you must be very careful about dynamic range when shooting and even alter your style of shooting to compensate for this weakness of in-camera JPG. With RAW, things are just what they were as they came in, and you can think more like a film SLR shooter in your head. One poster on here called RAW a "savior" that let's you save a shot that would be a throw away in JPG and was crucified for saying that but I agree. That's why I shoot RAW + JPG all the time now. If the JPG isn't up to par, I process the RAW and can many times end up with a decent end result. That's important when I shoot 150 shots during a rather quick scheduled shoot and I can't go back to re-shoot. You can't get them all right but you can get most right and salvage the rest with the help of RAW.

Most processing software I've seen lets you recover detail in a potentially "blown out" bright area of a RAW while detail is pretty well gone forever in an identical in-camera JPG version, etc. The software darkens the whole RAW file (lowers the exposure) to recover the details of the bright part but then you boost the gamma, brightness, fill flash or whatever your software calls it to regain proper exposure in the rest of the photo - which also enhances and boosts visible digital noise you didn't see before.

Then you have digital noise removal features to resolve that too. So you can juggle back and forth to get what you want in RAW while with an in-camera produced JPG the juggling game is limited if not completely eliminated concerning "blown out" areas or lost detail in shadow areas. Result - RAW can create a more refined file to print.

I shoot with both for real estate work and in some cases RAW is better to deal with (let's say a room with brown painted walls and a dark ceiling with very few lamps and I have one flash but there noon-time overwhelming sunlight on the scene outside the windows, making for a radically wide dynamic range. But in some cases it's quicker for me to use an JPG version almost as-is and skip over the RAW processing.

In either case, the RAW file edited by me and converted to JPG or TIFF, or the in-camera JPG file which would also be edited by me and re-saved very few times as a JPG with almost no compression used during the save, would achieve common-size prints up to 11X14 that are practically identical. If you print at 20X24 or larger, likely you'd start to see pixelization of the JPG at smaller sizes before you'd start to see it in RAW.

Hope that helps with what you wanted to know.

Reply
Feb 9, 2013 13:09:54   #
marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL
 
[quote=GHK]
marcomarks

Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information. While RAW is real data and a JPG includes a percentage of fake recreated pixels, the number of pixels is still the same.

In either case, if you create a file that is 300 ppi per inch horizontally and vertically, the file you print is going to have more ppi than a home printer can print when converted to dots per inch anyway. So a RAW file that has been converted to another format like TIFF or JPG or whatever for printing purposes or a JPG should be so similar (assuming you haven't opened and saved the JPG a lot of times) when printed that you likely won't be able to tell the difference between them.[/quote wrote:

----------------------------------------------
Oh dear no; you are missing the whole point.

GHK


Your comment is of no consequence unless you elaborate and give your opinion as to why and what point is missed. A 16MP file is a 16MP file when opened whether it's RAW or JPG. What's in the file is certainly different because the JPG process threw away a lot of original data but it still ends up as the same quantity of pixels.

Reply
Feb 9, 2013 13:18:54   #
LoneRangeFinder Loc: Left field
 
photoninja1 wrote:
You generally convert a RAW file to a TIFF for printing so you preserve as much information as possible. The big advantage of RAW is that editing is non-destructive and reversable, and you can push RAW edits much farther without creating artifacts. If your RAW pictures are not visually distinguishable from JPEG images, you might need to take another look at your editing proceedures.


This is what I do. I find that it also depends on who is doing your printing. If you are going "on the cheap", it won't make a lot of difference. If, however, you are shooting for "gallery quality" with precise color adjustments, TIFF is the way to go. JM2pennies....

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Feb 9, 2013 14:16:47   #
clansman Loc: wendover,england
 
Hallo Marcomarks, many thanks for taking the time to spell things out so clearlyI am certainly inclined to do RAW+JPG to be sure. I did not realise that a JPG revisited does degrade, another reason for committing to Raw as its own JPG can be reconstituted.
My interest is shooting horses jumping cross-country so there is their coat colour plus the rider's to get right. (Rider looks only at the position of both and the horse says nothing!)So it is really only my own satisfaction which is paramount.
Thanks again for the explanation.Think I am about done on this...

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Feb 9, 2013 14:35:34   #
marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL
 
clansman wrote:
Hallo Marcomarks, many thanks for taking the time to spell things out so clearlyI am certainly inclined to do RAW+JPG to be sure. I did not realise that a JPG revisited does degrade, another reason for committing to Raw as its own JPG can be reconstituted.
My interest is shooting horses jumping cross-country so there is their coat colour plus the rider's to get right. (Rider looks only at the position of both and the horse says nothing!)So it is really only my own satisfaction which is paramount.
Thanks again for the explanation.Think I am about done on this...
Hallo Marcomarks, many thanks for taking the time ... (show quote)


It doesn't degrade from re-visiting it, only by opening it then saving it again. Each save is a re-compression that takes away more and more original pixels so degradation takes place each time. If you just look and then close it without saving it, degradation does NOT take place.

That IS another advantage of RAW. If you keep your original files in the RAW format, edits to them are non-destructive to the file, and you can start over to create an all new JPG or TIFF or whatever, or use the same settings as before with some slight adjustments while still retaining the original file quality.

Lightroom, for example, saves all the changes you make as a history along with the file, and you can come back and change things you did slightly or radically, reset everything back to original and start completely over, etc.

By the way, a NIK Software plug-in for PhotoShop or Lightroom was recommended to me that gives you enormous latitude for changing characteristics of zones of a photo by clicking on that zone and tweaking the sliders that pop up, then clicking on another zone and tweaking its sliders that pop up. The zones can even overlap if you want. Sounds beneficial to your need to work on the horse's coat versus the rider's coat as separate entities within the same photo. Lightroom does somewhat the same thing by brush painting a mask that is affected by parameter sliders but this plug-in is intuitive and smart. I've very excited by it and I'm doing a demo trial right now.

http://www.niksoftware.com/viveza/usa/entry.php

Reply
Feb 10, 2013 11:59:37   #
GHK Loc: The Vale of Eden
 
marcomarks wrote:
GHK wrote:
marcomarks

Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information. While RAW is real data and a JPG includes a percentage of fake recreated pixels, the number of pixels is still the same.

In either case, if you create a file that is 300 ppi per inch horizontally and vertically, the file you print is going to have more ppi than a home printer can print when converted to dots per inch anyway. So a RAW file that has been converted to another format like TIFF or JPG or Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information.whatever for printing purposes or a JPG should be so similar (assuming you haven't opened and saved the JPG a lot of times) when printed that you likely won't be able to tell the difference between them.
[/quote wrote:

----------------------------------------------
Oh dear no; you are missing the whole point.

GHK
Your comment is of no consequence unless you elaborate and give your opinion as to why and what point is missed. A 16MP file is a 16MP file when opened whether it's RAW or JPG. What's in the file is certainly different because the JPG process threw away a lot of original data but it still ends up as the same quantity of pixels.
quote=marcomarks br br Whether shooting RAW or J... (show quote)
In either case, if you create a file that is 300 ppi per inch horizontally and vertically, the file you print is going to have more ppi than a home printer can print when converted to dots per inch anyway.
Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information.
__________________________________
Dear Marcomarks,
You are quite right to criticise me. I would not normally make a comment without attempting to justify it. The reason, in this instance, was twofold: (a) I was fairly busy and the justification would have been time-consuming;
(b) I have made rather a lot of posts on this general topic over the last few weeks (probably too many) and I felt that I had already said everything that was relevant sometimes more than once).
Nevertheless, I apologise and will attempt to make recompense by addressing the matter in full detail.

Here goes: "Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information."
There is nothing much wrong with this but it is worth adding a few points.
If you select the 'Raw plus JPG' camera setting, two saves will be loaded to the memory card.
The saved JPG will actually have less pixels than the Raw because it is compressed (downsampled) on saving. Of course the JPG will be resampled up to its original pixel size when you open it into Photoshop or whatever. You obviously recognise that the upsampling requires interpolation of new pixels which are not identical with the ones discarded on compression; I have never seen your phrase "fake recreated pixels" before, but I think that it is an excellent description of what actually happens. I hope you won't mind if you see me use it at some future date!
The other thing about the JPG is that it is processed, to quite a fair extent, before it is first saved in the camera.
the degree and nature of this varies somewhat from camera to camera, but it almore certainly involves adjustment of highlight and shadow points, and of colour values including colour balance.The saved Raw is, as near as is resonably possible (depending to a small extent on manufacturers decisions - the reason why there are so many Raw formats in circulation) an accurate record of what was initially recorded by the digital sensor. The Raw file itself only contains tonal information; hence it has only one channel (greyscale) and is comparatively small. All the other information, notably the colours which require channels, is stored in vector form in sidecar channels, this actually resulting in a reduction in memory requirements. When you try to open the Raw file, it is, strictly speaking, not possible to do so. What you get is an on-screen representation of a file converted to a logarithmic format with all the sidecar information incorporated into it. This file is much larger now and will, more or less, retain its size when saved, especially if the save is in PSD format, which I would definitely recommend.
_____________________________________
"In either case, if you create a file that is 300 ppi per inch horizontally and vertically, the file you print is going to have more ppi than a home printer can print when converted to dots per inch anyway."

I confess that I am not sure what point you are trying to make here.
Whether a printer can accommodate a 300ppi image or not depends on the file size in pixels. Certainly, even a 24 Mp image from a Sony A900 would have a long side of just over 20 inches; too big even for A3 paper, but you could either increase the ppi (without data loss), or downsize the image using 'Bicubic Sharper' with only minimal loss which would not be detectable in practice.
___________________________________
"So a RAW file that has been converted to another format like TIFF or JPG or Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information.whatever for printing purposes or a JPG should be so similar (assuming you haven't opened and saved the JPG a lot of times) when printed that you likely won't be able to tell the difference between them."
quote=GHK quote=marcomarks br br Whether shooti... (show quote)



First: you cannot print directly from a Raw file. If you could the result would be virtually useless. The file Must be converted to a logarithmic format to be realistically viewed on screen or printed. You don't have to do anything to achieve this; it happens automatically when you click 'Open ' on the stored Raw file. What comes up on screen is the log format conversion and, after processing it should be stored in log format, for which I strongly recommend PSD, not JPG, gecause of the lossy compression of all JPGs. When you do this, you don't need to do any thing about keeping your Raw file; it will be automatically retained in the same store as before. The only change in it will be that it will reflect any adjustments which you chose to make to it in the Raw state. This is a sensible thing, but if you do want to go back to the original version it is quite easy to do it.
Now for the crucial point of which image, the JPG or the one derived from the Raw ( it isn't a Raw file any more - in my case it is always PSD) GIVES THE BETTER FINAL RESULT.
My answer to this is, that if both are handled as well as is possible, it will always be the Raw. The key lies in the proviso I have just made.
There is little or no point in using Raw file unless you
carry out as much of your post processing as you possibly can on the Raw image before converting it to a log format.
I have said, above, that an opened Raw displays a log conversion on screen. However, this is only a display; the image that you work on is still in the Raw format and the changes you make will not cause any information loss because you are only altering the vectors in the sidecar. When, having completed your work on theRaw file, you click 'Open Image' the conversion to log format happens and the on screen image, although it is still exactly the same in appearence, is now a true representation of the new, log image which I always save into memory as a PSD.
I have not finished at this stage though; I reopen the PSD in Photoshop and carry out further processing which was not within the scope of the Raw file (even thogh I realise that my changes now result in some data loss). The file is then saved as my final version (for the time being at least - I can always return to it later and make amendments, especially as I make great use of layers, especially adjustment layers, in my processing - the PSD save retains all layers).
If I have to process a JPG I still do it in Photoshop without changing my technique. However, when I resave it as a JPG, all the layers are lost and later modifications incur further data loss, the overall loss being much greater than with the PSD/Raw route.

GHK

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Feb 10, 2013 12:56:57   #
Artsiegrrrl Loc: West Virginia
 
marcomarks wrote:
clansman wrote:
Hallo Marcomarks, many thanks for taking the time to spell things out so clearlyI am certainly inclined to do RAW+JPG to be sure. I did not realise that a JPG revisited does degrade, another reason for committing to Raw as its own JPG can be reconstituted.
My interest is shooting horses jumping cross-country so there is their coat colour plus the rider's to get right. (Rider looks only at the position of both and the horse says nothing!)So it is really only my own satisfaction which is paramount.
Thanks again for the explanation.Think I am about done on this...
Hallo Marcomarks, many thanks for taking the time ... (show quote)


It doesn't degrade from re-visiting it, only by opening it then saving it again. Each save is a re-compression that takes away more and more original pixels so degradation takes place each time. If you just look and then close it without saving it, degradation does NOT take place.

That IS another advantage of RAW. If you keep your original files in the RAW format, edits to them are non-destructive to the file, and you can start over to create an all new JPG or TIFF or whatever, or use the same settings as before with some slight adjustments while still retaining the original file quality.

Lightroom, for example, saves all the changes you make as a history along with the file, and you can come back and change things you did slightly or radically, reset everything back to original and start completely over, etc.

By the way, a NIK Software plug-in for PhotoShop or Lightroom was recommended to me that gives you enormous latitude for changing characteristics of zones of a photo by clicking on that zone and tweaking the sliders that pop up, then clicking on another zone and tweaking its sliders that pop up. The zones can even overlap if you want. Sounds beneficial to your need to work on the horse's coat versus the rider's coat as separate entities within the same photo. Lightroom does somewhat the same thing by brush painting a mask that is affected by parameter sliders but this plug-in is intuitive and smart. I've very excited by it and I'm doing a demo trial right now.

http://www.niksoftware.com/viveza/usa/entry.php
quote=clansman Hallo Marcomarks, many thanks for ... (show quote)


Thank you, markomarks. This was not my question originally, but I had the same questions about this and I appreciate your elaborations on the subject. You have been a lot of help to me. I just want to jump in and ask one more question. Hopefully no one minds me doing so...

When you import your images to your computer, as a RAW file, is it better to import them through Lightroom, Photoshop, or your computer files? You said that each new save decompresses the file and loses quality so, suppose I import them to Lightroom first, edit them, send a copy with Lightroom adjustments to Photoshop, edit them more and then export or print, etc. I can always go back to Lightroom and search by keywords for the first import and re-set it back to the original RAW, right? What if I want to keep the edited copy as well? Should I then export it and save it in a file on my computer so that I can re-visit it in Lightroom and re-edit it if I want? Lightroom will save the original as a RAW file? Sorry if this is a simple question here, I am fairly new to all of this and am just trying RAW out. I was shooting JPEG and have recently learned that I may want to try RAW. By the sound of it, I'm sure I will benefit from it.

Thank you so much for your time. You have helped more people than just clansman :)
This has been a great discussion to follow.

Reply
Feb 10, 2013 13:27:29   #
marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL
 
GHK wrote:
marcomarks wrote:
GHK wrote:
marcomarks

Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information. While RAW is real data and a JPG includes a percentage of fake recreated pixels, the number of pixels is still the same.

In either case, if you create a file that is 300 ppi per inch horizontally and vertically, the file you print is going to have more ppi than a home printer can print when converted to dots per inch anyway. So a RAW file that has been converted to another format like TIFF or JPG or Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information.whatever for printing purposes or a JPG should be so similar (assuming you haven't opened and saved the JPG a lot of times) when printed that you likely won't be able to tell the difference between them.
[/quote wrote:

----------------------------------------------
Oh dear no; you are missing the whole point.

GHK
Your comment is of no consequence unless you elaborate and give your opinion as to why and what point is missed. A 16MP file is a 16MP file when opened whether it's RAW or JPG. What's in the file is certainly different because the JPG process threw away a lot of original data but it still ends up as the same quantity of pixels.
quote=marcomarks br br Whether shooting RAW or J... (show quote)
In either case, if you create a file that is 300 ppi per inch horizontally and vertically, the file you print is going to have more ppi than a home printer can print when converted to dots per inch anyway.
Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information.
__________________________________
Dear Marcomarks,
You are quite right to criticise me. I would not normally make a comment without attempting to justify it. The reason, in this instance, was twofold: (a) I was fairly busy and the justification would have been time-consuming;
(b) I have made rather a lot of posts on this general topic over the last few weeks (probably too many) and I felt that I had already said everything that was relevant sometimes more than once).
Nevertheless, I apologise and will attempt to make recompense by addressing the matter in full detail.

Here goes: "Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information."
There is nothing much wrong with this but it is worth adding a few points.
If you select the 'Raw plus JPG' camera setting, two saves will be loaded to the memory card.
The saved JPG will actually have less pixels than the Raw because it is compressed (downsampled) on saving. Of course the JPG will be resampled up to its original pixel size when you open it into Photoshop or whatever. You obviously recognise that the upsampling requires interpolation of new pixels which are not identical with the ones discarded on compression; I have never seen your phrase "fake recreated pixels" before, but I think that it is an excellent description of what actually happens. I hope you won't mind if you see me use it at some future date!
The other thing about the JPG is that it is processed, to quite a fair extent, before it is first saved in the camera.
the degree and nature of this varies somewhat from camera to camera, but it almore certainly involves adjustment of highlight and shadow points, and of colour values including colour balance.The saved Raw is, as near as is resonably possible (depending to a small extent on manufacturers decisions - the reason why there are so many Raw formats in circulation) an accurate record of what was initially recorded by the digital sensor. The Raw file itself only contains tonal information; hence it has only one channel (greyscale) and is comparatively small. All the other information, notably the colours which require channels, is stored in vector form in sidecar channels, this actually resulting in a reduction in memory requirements. When you try to open the Raw file, it is, strictly speaking, not possible to do so. What you get is an on-screen representation of a file converted to a logarithmic format with all the sidecar information incorporated into it. This file is much larger now and will, more or less, retain its size when saved, especially if the save is in PSD format, which I would definitely recommend.
_____________________________________
"In either case, if you create a file that is 300 ppi per inch horizontally and vertically, the file you print is going to have more ppi than a home printer can print when converted to dots per inch anyway."

I confess that I am not sure what point you are trying to make here.
Whether a printer can accommodate a 300ppi image or not depends on the file size in pixels. Certainly, even a 24 Mp image from a Sony A900 would have a long side of just over 20 inches; too big even for A3 paper, but you could either increase the ppi (without data loss), or downsize the image using 'Bicubic Sharper' with only minimal loss which would not be detectable in practice.
___________________________________
"So a RAW file that has been converted to another format like TIFF or JPG or Whether shooting RAW or JPG you have the same amount of pixels of information.whatever for printing purposes or a JPG should be so similar (assuming you haven't opened and saved the JPG a lot of times) when printed that you likely won't be able to tell the difference between them."
quote=GHK quote=marcomarks br br Whether shooti... (show quote)



First: you cannot print directly from a Raw file. If you could the result would be virtually useless. The file Must be converted to a logarithmic format to be realistically viewed on screen or printed. You don't have to do anything to achieve this; it happens automatically when you click 'Open ' on the stored Raw file. What comes up on screen is the log format conversion and, after processing it should be stored in log format, for which I strongly recommend PSD, not JPG, gecause of the lossy compression of all JPGs. When you do this, you don't need to do any thing about keeping your Raw file; it will be automatically retained in the same store as before. The only change in it will be that it will reflect any adjustments which you chose to make to it in the Raw state. This is a sensible thing, but if you do want to go back to the original version it is quite easy to do it.
Now for the crucial point of which image, the JPG or the one derived from the Raw ( it isn't a Raw file any more - in my case it is always PSD) GIVES THE BETTER FINAL RESULT.
My answer to this is, that if both are handled as well as is possible, it will always be the Raw. The key lies in the proviso I have just made.
There is little or no point in using Raw file unless you
carry out as much of your post processing as you possibly can on the Raw image before converting it to a log format.
I have said, above, that an opened Raw displays a log conversion on screen. However, this is only a display; the image that you work on is still in the Raw format and the changes you make will not cause any information loss because you are only altering the vectors in the sidecar. When, having completed your work on theRaw file, you click 'Open Image' the conversion to log format happens and the on screen image, although it is still exactly the same in appearence, is now a true representation of the new, log image which I always save into memory as a PSD.
I have not finished at this stage though; I reopen the PSD in Photoshop and carry out further processing which was not within the scope of the Raw file (even thogh I realise that my changes now result in some data loss). The file is then saved as my final version (for the time being at least - I can always return to it later and make amendments, especially as I make great use of layers, especially adjustment layers, in my processing - the PSD save retains all layers).
If I have to process a JPG I still do it in Photoshop without changing my technique. However, when I resave it as a JPG, all the layers are lost and later modifications incur further data loss, the overall loss being much greater than with the PSD/Raw route.

GHK
quote=marcomarks quote=GHK quote=marcomarks br ... (show quote)


First: Nobody said anything about printing from a RAW file. I clearly said it had to be converted to something else. Me thinks you're now arguing with yourself and you haven't closely read what I posted.

You're also assuming everybody uses Photoshop for PSD files and that's not true either because not everybody uses Adobe products.

And I can't agree that a RAW file converted to something else and edited by you is ALWAYS going to print better. There are many exceptions that could allow an in-camera JPG edited slightly to print as good or better - a poor RAW editing job by the user comes to mind.

Keep in mind that nothing is "ALWAYS" but typically is "USUALLY" or "MOST TIMES."

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