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Mirrorless vs regular cameras... Opinion
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Mar 19, 2024 01:20:50   #
TonyP Loc: New Zealand
 
Ysarex wrote:
I already responded to this but I had an opportunity and went ahead and snapped an example for you. The answer is yes, absolutely. See the photo below.

So I grabbed some odd items, put them on the couch and took a snap with my Z7. The raw file is a perfect exposure. My definition of a perfect exposure is an exposure that fully utilizes the recording capacity of the sensor. With that exposure I have the best possible SNR and the best possible data to work with. Note the upper right corner inset. You see a raw histogram with exposure stats and EXIF data. To get a perfect exposure I place the diffuse highlight in the scene at the sensor clipping threshold and click. Note the exposure stats column in the yellow circle. The red channel is not at clipping, the blue channel is not at clipping and the green channel has just made it there with less than 1% clipped. I have the green channel just barely touching the sensor saturation threshold. You can't expose with that kind of precision using a DSLR and I'll never go back to one. I can do what I did here with any subject in any lighting condition every time. NOTE the EXIF data and the EC value used. I set the camera to expose +2.3 stops above the meter reading. Using a DSLR how would you have known to do that with precision and certainty knowing the raw file exposure was perfect when you clicked the shutter release?
I already responded to this but I had an opportuni... (show quote)


Somehow photographers have coped. For years and years, seems like forever, but we coped and some still do.
But I don't spend much time photographing cushions. (just kidding)

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Mar 19, 2024 01:36:34   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
TonyP wrote:
Somehow photographers have coped. For years and years, seems like forever, but we coped and some still do.
But I don't spend much time photographing cushions. (just kidding)

Of course they did. I was one of them. Photography became my only source of income sometime in the 1970s. Most of the cameras I used then were mirrorless but they didn't have live-view highlight clipping warnings. I coped. It was more difficult then. One of the reasons I like digital now is because it's so damn easy to nail it every time. Should I not have switched to digital when it became easier and better than film? I was coping with film. Do you use electricity in your home to produce light? I mean you could cope using fire right.

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Mar 19, 2024 01:40:06   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
b top gun wrote:
How many times has this subject (DSLR vs Mirrorless) been beaten into the ground here???

For what it's worth, the proof for me has always been on paper. I see no difference in IQ between shots taken by a D7100, a D850 or a Z8...I have used all three with the same FX mount lenses. The advantage to the D850 and Z8, I can provide a much bigger print if the customer is interested. How I get that image does not matter.

IBIS is a nice option to have, as is the live histogram, yet I survived before they were part of the camera system. One thing I do like about the Z8, I get to preview a black and white shot before I take it.

I challenge the comment that live view exposure aids can remove all metering uncertainty; what about ND filters which I have not used on a Z8 yet? I use the histogram as a guideline; it gets me close.
How many times has this subject (DSLR vs Mirrorles... (show quote)


I use ND filters pretty often and with the Z9 I can “see” exposures up to 15 minutes. I believe the Z8 can do the same. And yes, whenever somebody brings up IQ as not really being better with mirrorless I always say that IQ is not a reason for going mirrorless. I’ve gone mirrorless because the features it brings make photography more enjoyable for me.

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Mar 19, 2024 02:08:36   #
therwol Loc: USA
 
User ID wrote:
I made regular use of the LV mode of my SLRs, but SLR LV reeeeeally sux bad. Its klunky and its slow and acoarst its never viewable in the eyepiece. So, I made the obvious upgrade to full time LV cameras.


I agree about Live View on a DSLR, and when attempting video with my D850 in bright sunlight, I could barely see the rear screen. It ended up being a disaster. The only Nikon DSLR with decent autofocus in the Live View mode is the D780. The contrast detection in the others is slow and hunts.

I'm just not at a point in my life where I want to upgrade and spend a lot of money. My D850 is good enough for anything that I do.

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Mar 19, 2024 02:14:17   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
Rongnongno wrote:
The progress is in the sensor, nowhere else.

The idea of using a display instead of through the lens is reverting to old time when folks were looking from above to focus...

Issues with the display...
- LIGHT!!! If too bright, good luck using the display.
- Eyes issue If one needs glasses all bets are off, there is no way to adjust for that but use the tiny in camera display in the 'view finder'. Go check for accuracy on that since the display is made of tiny pixels vs 'a normal light' (analog)
- Weight unbalance. (Light body, heavy lens)

That is one of the few reasons why I will not upgrade to mirrorless, even if I do appreciate the new sensors.
The progress is in the sensor, nowhere else. br b... (show quote)

I can't speak to the experiences others have had with mirrorless bodies but I can comment on Nikon Z bodies with EVFs. I have had a lot of personal experience on several models of their Z mount line.

- I rarely use the back screen to capture anything and I have never had a situation where the light was too bright to use the EVF, But, of course I haven't tried shooting straight at the sun on a bright sunny summer day. For me EVF and OVF usage are very similar but the EVF allows for much more functionality.

- I wear glasses and I do the same thing I did previously with my older DSLRs, I adjust the diopter in the EVF. I am not sure what you mean by the tiny display in the viewfinder. It is very similar experience to looking through my DSLR optical viewfinders but with more options.

- Weight unbalance. That can happen with large lenses on any camera body. Additionally, lenses designed specifically for the Z mount tend to be somewhat shorter and lighter than their Nikon F mount counterparts. I not sure how you hold your cameras with large or heavy lenses mounted, but my left hand is always supporting the lens, regardless of the size or weight, and as a result the size of a body is irrelevant for me. Of course, using mirrorless bodies will be more of an issue for those who like to shoot holding their camera/lens combination one handed

I am not trying to convince you or anyone to use a mirrorless body if that is not their preference. And there are some valid reasons that some people dislike using an EVF. However, the three points you specifically mention in this thread are a bit of a stretch based on my experience for the last two years since moving from my Canon DSLRs to the Nikon Z mount system. I would never consider moving back. But, of course, everyone should use whatever they find most comfortable.

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Mar 19, 2024 06:47:31   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
Rongnongno wrote:
The progress is in the sensor, nowhere else.

The idea of using a display instead of through the lens is reverting to old time when folks were looking from above to focus...

Issues with the display...
- LIGHT!!! If too bright, good luck using the display.
- Eyes issue If one needs glasses all bets are off, there is no way to adjust for that but use the tiny in camera display in the 'view finder'. Go check for accuracy on that since the display is made of tiny pixels vs 'a normal light' (analog)
- Weight unbalance. (Light body, heavy lens)

That is one of the few reasons why I will not upgrade to mirrorless, even if I do appreciate the new sensors.
The progress is in the sensor, nowhere else. br b... (show quote)


As a wildlife photographer, capturing the right moment is important in the fast moving world of animals in motion.
Pre-exposure on mirrorless camera's allows me to capture moments I could never get before with any DSLR.
30 frames per second RAW is a real help for me capturing that right moment.
Now, I can understand if your shooting stagnant objects my former D500, D850, and D5 would be great, no argument there.
In the image below I use 30 frames per second RAW to get the moment of capture that this Tri-colored Heron caught his meal. Now my D500 shot 10 frames per second, but even with that, it was sometimes hit or miss. Again, I get many more keepers at 30fps vs. 10 fps. I shoot RAW only because of the advantages in post.
Did I also mention the silent shutter on the mirrorless, this allows me to say closer to wildlife in cover, my D850 would frighten away anything with a hundred yards.
Again, if your just shooting general subjects, I see nothing wrong with keeping your DSLR's.
Good luck and keep on shooting until the end.
Sony a1, 30 fps RAW, iso 2000, 1/2000 sec. Sony 600mm f4 all manual exposure



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Mar 19, 2024 07:01:19   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Please, it's more than newer, bigger, stronger sensors.

It's also the newest, biggest, strongest processors.
It's also IBIS.
It's also focus assist.
It's also focus peeking.
It's also smaller(ish) size with the removal of space needed for a flapping mirror.
It's also the EVF.
It's also newer and sharper mirrorless lens designs.
It's also adapting legacy SLR lenses from any brand.
It's also no mechanical shutter and bursts in the 30+ per second range.
It's also advanced eye-tracking AF.
Please, it's more than newer, bigger, stronger sen... (show quote)


DirtFarmer wrote:
Almost all of those things could go into a DSLR except for the non-mirror, which reduces the weight.

So, in my opinion the advantages of the mirrorless are (1) no mirror slap; (2) smaller and lighter. Not sure 30+ frame rate is an advantage but someone would probably consider it so.

In keeping with the title of this thread, I am expressing my opinion.


SuperflyTNT wrote:
You’re completely wrong. Most of those things are directly related to being mirrorless.


I'm not COMPLETELY wrong. In re-reading Paul's post I did miss a couple things that are directly related to mirrorless.

It's also the newest, biggest, strongest processors.
It's also IBIS.
It's also focus assist.
It's also focus peeking.
It's also smaller(ish) size with the removal of space needed for a flapping mirror.
It's also the EVF.
It's also newer and sharper mirrorless lens designs.

It's also adapting legacy SLR lenses from any brand.
It's also no mechanical shutter and bursts in the 30+ per second range.
It's also advanced eye-tracking AF.


The red items are mirrorless only. Yes, many, but less than half (so not most). The others are things that could be included in a DSLR. They probably won't be due to the fact that mirrorless is the current STYLE. And the DSLR is the old broom. Old brooms still sweep. It's just that manufacturers are not going to make old style things, DSLRs, cars, boats, toasters, whatever.

I have no problem with people adopting new styles. It enhances the global economy. I personally am not interested in style (sometimes to my wife's dismay). I am a pragmatist, and will work with what I have until it no longer does what I need done. I admit it: as an old farmer I am cheap thrifty.

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Mar 19, 2024 07:24:16   #
wmurnahan Loc: Bloomington IN
 
Started with a rangefinder camera, had SLR's, twin lenses, and now a mirrorless. The only thing I prefer the SLR for is manual focus with the old school fresnel/split cirlce, with the mirrorless, I'm able to see what the finished photo will look like with the settings I'm using, for most shots (not long exposures).

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Mar 19, 2024 07:27:01   #
streetmarty Loc: Brockton, Ma
 
“I love my Nikon D780 over everything mirrorless because, like the real camera it is, everything just works and GOES! instantly. There's never any waiting as with mirrorless; my D780 responds instantly to every button or shutter press, its autofocus is much faster than any Nikon Z camera and all its memory and saving functions work as they should, letting me recall all my settings in the flick of a dial to reset my camera completely between my favorite combinations of shooting settings. Also unlike any mirrorless camera, saving my settings to a card saves and recalls everything without forgetting anything. All mirrorless attempts at this easy function today have failed: the Nikon Z6, Z7 and Sony A7R Mk IV all forget and reset their shooting memories when you recall settings from a card! Losers!”..Ken Rockwell

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Mar 19, 2024 07:36:09   #
Tomfl101 Loc: Mount Airy, MD
 
If you’re a landscape photographer shooting small apertures of still subjects, I agree there’s no reason to switch to mirrorless. But if you shoot sports, weddings or portraits at wide open apertures you will see significant improvement in sharpness and consistency of focus with mirrorless. Faster frame rates allow you bring home a higher percentage of peak performance imagery in sports and or birding photography. A mirrorless camera is just better tool. Embrace the improvements if your forte demands it.

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Mar 19, 2024 07:48:05   #
billt1970 Loc: Gambrills, Maryland
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Imagine your life as a successful photographer. Does your camera still have a mirror?


I believe that I am a successful professional photographer with over 1,400 successful real estate photo shoots over the past 5 years. In fact at age 75 I am now employed part time by Zillow for the past 7 months here in the Greater Baltimore/Washington Metropolitan area. Zillow doesn't care if I use a DSLR or a Mirrorless camera and neither do my direct clients. They simply want the results in terms of well composed and exposed merged (HDR5) images to help people sell their homes.

I have BOTH DSLR's (Nikon D750 and D7100) and Mirrorless (Nikon Z5) cameras. I love all of them, but where money is on the line I'm using the DSLRs, the D750 with a Nikkor 16-35mm zoom for general real estate shooting, and the D7100 with the Sigma 8mm Fisheye for Google See Inside 360degree tours. I've been using them both for many years and am most comfortable and confident that I will continue to get the results that my clients need.

As for the Z5, I also love it and am using it for street and landscape photography, my personal passions for which I have generated zero revenue. Why don't I convert? Why bother! I'm happy with the results from the DSLR. Plus, the Z5 comes with a 300+ page manual with which I am still, after two years, trying to figure out all of the features, most of which are superfluous for real estate work. Plus there is a relatively limited set of Mirrorless lenses available with nothing matching the 16-36mm that is my workhorse. You have to go down to 12mm (too wide for me for real estate work) or up to 24mm (not wide enough), with nothing in between.

And so, my response to the OP is: Yes . . . some some of my cameras still have a mirror, and some don't. Ultimately it depends on what I am doing. As usual, one-size does NOT fit all in the professional photography world.

Best Regards,

BT

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Mar 19, 2024 07:50:28   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
User ID wrote:
I made regular use of the LV mode of my SLRs, but SLR LV reeeeeally sux bad. Its klunky and its slow and acoarst its never viewable in the eyepiece. So, I made the obvious upgrade to full time LV cameras.

Personal preference, eh?

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Mar 19, 2024 07:51:51   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
TonyP wrote:
How did you cope I wonder, while waiting for someone to invent your mirrorless camera.


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Mar 19, 2024 08:30:45   #
Flickwet Loc: NEOhio
 
Captain Obvious called, he loves this thread. I have both forms, mirrorless is great, but my batteries are always dead it seems, whereas I can run my dishwasher with my D3 batteries

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Mar 19, 2024 09:13:56   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
I'm not COMPLETELY wrong. In re-reading Paul's post I did miss a couple things that are directly related to mirrorless.

It's also the newest, biggest, strongest processors.
It's also IBIS.
It's also focus assist.
It's also focus peeking.
It's also smaller(ish) size with the removal of space needed for a flapping mirror.
It's also the EVF.
It's also newer and sharper mirrorless lens designs.

It's also adapting legacy SLR lenses from any brand.
It's also no mechanical shutter and bursts in the 30+ per second range.
It's also advanced eye-tracking AF.


The red items are mirrorless only. Yes, many, but less than half (so not most). The others are things that could be included in a DSLR. They probably won't be due to the fact that mirrorless is the current STYLE. And the DSLR is the old broom. Old brooms still sweep. It's just that manufacturers are not going to make old style things, DSLRs, cars, boats, toasters, whatever.

I have no problem with people adopting new styles. It enhances the global economy. I personally am not interested in style (sometimes to my wife's dismay). I am a pragmatist, and will work with what I have until it no longer does what I need done. I admit it: as an old farmer I am cheap thrifty.
I'm not COMPLETELY wrong. In re-reading Paul's pos... (show quote)


The only thing NOT related to being mirrorless is IBIS. How are you gonna do focus peaking and focus assist with an OVF? How are you gonna adapt any brand legacy lens when you have to deal with the longer flange distance? How are you gonna do eye tracking with the limited focus points on a separate focus sensor in a DSLR?
It’s fine if you want to work with what you have until it no longer fills your needs. Nobody’s telling you that you need to go mirrorless, just realize the real difference. Spread manure on your farm. There’s already enough here.

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