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Disclosure of editing when posting pictures
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Aug 12, 2023 12:40:24   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
burkphoto wrote:
Why? Art is not traditions. Art is in the mind of the artist and the eye of the checkbook holder.


I thought the same thing. But it's not the case, at least among artists.

For instance, when doing intaglio printing using etched plates, it is never proper to cut the paper to size. It is always torn, leaving the ragged edges.

When you get to the point of being allowed to "see behind the curtain," you begin to learn that the artistic fraternity is full of tradition. Following them is a means of paying respect to other artists and artists who have gone before. And yes...there are rebels and outliers. Sometimes they make a lot of money. But they are not well-respected inside the community. In fact it seems that the choice between respect and prosperity is one of the key decisions that artists face.

Think about discussions on this forum around Ansel Adams. Few argue his commercial success. But there are a large number here who loudly proclaim him as a commercial hack.

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Aug 12, 2023 12:40:36   #
Bayou
 
There sure are a lot of fake skies posted on the UHH. Obvious fakes. Those speak for themselves.

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Aug 12, 2023 12:52:19   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
And those SOOC advocates should tell us exactly what all the settings were on their camera when they took the shot. What processing did the camera do to create that JPEG.

No more true than that you should list every step you followed in your post processing routine.

The thing is not even that I didn't ask my camera to reduce saturation or sharpness in my image. It's that I learned and knew that I needed to take those steps in order to get the best results.

Years ago, when I was repairing electric trains and shavers, I very rarely was required to do anything truly innovative to effect a repair. Instead, most of the time, I followed a quite routine process following procedures that required a modicum of knowledge and coordination. Most of what we do in photography is the same...doing fairy simple things in an appropriate manner at the appropriate time based on existing conditions. Same with driving a car or piloting an aircraft.

Yes, it's in the doing, but it's much more in the knowing how and why and when.

Otherwise, when you do processing, the bulk of the credit would have to go to the designers and programmers who built the software. After all...they are the ones who really did the heavy lifting, not you.

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Aug 12, 2023 12:57:47   #
jimvanells Loc: Augusta, GA
 
Art is subjective and you an OK image and made it into something folks enjoy. Smile, your an artist.

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Aug 12, 2023 13:00:21   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
larryepage wrote:
I thought the same thing. But it's not the case, at least among artists.

For instance, when doing intaglio printing using etched plates, it is never proper to cut the paper to size. It is always torn, leaving the ragged edges.

When you get to the point of being allowed to "see behind the curtain," you begin to learn that the artistic fraternity is full of tradition. Following them is a means of paying respect to other artists and artists who have gone before. And yes...there are rebels and outliers. Sometimes they make a lot of money. But they are not well-respected inside the community. In fact it seems that the choice between respect and prosperity is one of the key decisions that artists face.

Think about discussions on this forum around Ansel Adams. Few argue his commercial success. But there are a large number here who loudly proclaim him as a commercial hack.
I thought the same thing. But it's not the case, ... (show quote)


I was educated to believe…

> That "never" and "always" are dubious conditions, outside of math and the hard sciences.

> That traditions are all too often barriers to innovation and understanding.

> That "being respected within a community by following its norms" is not necessarily a virtue, and may hinder the progress of that community.

> That the concept of art is much greater than the opinions of experts and critics.

> That art is not a specific medium, but a message or emotion communicated or evoked.

If that makes me an outlier, so be it.

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Aug 12, 2023 13:01:17   #
MJPerini
 
Personally, I don't add stuff the was not in the original scene. It doesn't feel right to me. The fact that people often do not want to disclose the fact that they have, seals it for me.
Now I started in Advertising photography, where composites and 'photo illustration' are common so I understand those processes. But when it comes to landscape photography, if substitution is not disclosed, people will assume that you captured a 'real' scene.....one that doesn't really exist, AND that it is all your work.
I would be more comfortable with at least stating that the picture was made in two locations (if you made both originals) If you 'picked a sky as clip art' I think you need to say that.
Put yourself in the viewer's / buyer's place, wouldn't yo like to know.
But if labeled as a composite image, all is fair and up front.
That's my opinion, I realize others will differ.
Good Luck, Nice Picture

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Aug 12, 2023 13:05:08   #
sodapop Loc: Bel Air, MD
 
If I take a landscape photo and it does not look like what I saw, I can restore it to what I saw . Even good cameras do not always record exactly what we saw.

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Aug 12, 2023 13:10:44   #
dwmoar Loc: Oregon, Willamette Valley
 
Architect1776 wrote:
When you add a fake image you must disclose it.
Otherwise you are lying to the world that it is a photo you captured at the lake.
Some take umbrage at calling it lying but it is. Might as well have AI add a fake sky, or better yet do the whole thing for you.


+1

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Aug 12, 2023 13:11:20   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
MJPerini wrote:
...
Put yourself in the viewer's / buyer's place, wouldn't you like to know.
...

Nope...

I look at images on their own merit.
I'll either like them or not.
I don't care if they are "real" or contrived.

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Aug 12, 2023 13:17:50   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
burkphoto wrote:
I was educated to believe…

> That "never" and "always" are dubious conditions, outside of math and the hard sciences.

> That traditions are all too often barriers to innovation and understanding.

> That "being respected within a community by following its norms" is not necessarily a virtue, and may hinder the progress of that community.

> That the concept of art is much greater than the opinions of experts and critics.

> That art is not a specific medium, but a message or emotion communicated or evoked.

If that makes me an outlier, so be it.
I was educated to believe… br br > That "... (show quote)


I was educated much the same way as you. I'm learning at a fairly advanced age that my education didn't really reflect reality.

Limitations on "never" and "always" can be dangerous.

There's nothing wrong with being an outlier. But there's value in knowing that you are one.

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Aug 12, 2023 13:21:33   #
dwmoar Loc: Oregon, Willamette Valley
 
Bobsphoto wrote:
What is the photo being used for? If it is, for example, a forensic photo to be used in a legal context, accuracy and honesty is important. If you are taking a portrait and use available tools to , say, remove blemishes from the subject, perhaps only the subject should know, . (Hopefully it was at their request.)

As Jerry pointed out, even in the age of film and plates, photos were processed. A photo is processed the moment it enters a camera, based upon exposure settings, focus, film speed, sense, etc. Once film went into the development tank it was processed by solution and time. Printing the negative involved additional processing. The difference now is that we have much greater ability to make significant changes.

I spent two cloudy, dull days at Arches NP. The photos were bland. I was able to make them more interesting in post processing.

The controlling question is whether you are trying to deceive the viewer with your photo in a harmful way. If you are not, then the end product stands on its own merit, because there is creative skill involved from the time you frame the phot until you publish it.
What is the photo being used for? If it is, for ex... (show quote)


The controlling question is whether you are trying to deceive the viewer with your photo

If you are adding things to the image that was never there to begin with then yes you are deceiving the viewer. Wither that is harmful or not is an entirely different subject.

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Aug 12, 2023 13:23:22   #
Urnst Loc: Brownsville, Texas
 
Delderby wrote:
There would be no need to ask - we know that brushes were used.
Photography is the art of capturing the real moment as it happened. If you cannot, or aren't good enough, to do that, then you're no photographer. You'd do better to go back to a coloring book and wax crayons.



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Aug 12, 2023 13:24:26   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
dwmoar wrote:
The controlling question is whether you are trying to deceive the viewer with your photo

If you are adding things to the image that was never there to begin with then yes you are deceiving the viewer. Wither that is harmful or not is an entirely different subject.

Or creating art....

Perception and interpretation.

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Aug 12, 2023 13:26:54   #
Urnst Loc: Brownsville, Texas
 
ELNikkor wrote:
Contrast control, cropping, brighter/darker etc. are not adding foreign elements to an existing image. Sky replacement, bogus moon/plane/bird inserting is. Object/person removal, while less objectionable, also changes an image from what you saw through the viewfinder. Categories defined and acknowledged through an internationally recognized code could help in establishing some kind of quick accountability for the genuineness of an image.



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Aug 12, 2023 13:31:23   #
BobSchwabk Loc: Roanoke Virginia area
 
we are debating this in the camera club I am a member of. There is quite a bit of discussion on whether we are photographers or digital artist. One point we seem to agree on is that if you change the image, the addition must be from an image you took . . .
. . . thoughts?

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