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Nikon Raw Shooters - MUST READ
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May 30, 2022 13:52:43   #
Artcameraman Loc: Springfield NH
 
Mostly I use Capture One and Lightroom/Photoshop why do I still use Nikon MX? Well in a nutshell I do all my White Balance in MX when shooting Infrared. Cheers from Springfield NH, USA.

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May 30, 2022 14:21:10   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
JD750 wrote:
That's not correct because a TIFF is lossless. Even given the same bit depth, when you are processing you are better off using a lossless format.

However the translation from 16 bit to 8 bit should occur at the end of the process rather than the beginning. So it's best to use 16 bit TIFF then compress and export, to 8-bit jpeg, or printer format, etc, at the end of the process.

We know that. But the camera can't produce a 16-bit TIFF, only 8-bit. A JPEG with minimum compression won't be much different.

But the problem starts with the 14-bit raw file. If you want 16-bit you need to get a better camera and live with the larger raw file.

The only alternative is to convert the 14-bit raw to 16-bit the way that DxO PureRaw 2 does it. That step alone eliminates a lot of noise as I already demonstrated.

Two more bits means 4x as many bytes for the data but the file is only about 3x as big because some of it is overhead that does not get bigger.

Once you have your 16-bit DNG (raw) you may already have all of the noise reduction you need. DxO PureRaw 2 also sharpens the data in the DNG file although you can't really control how much it does it.

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May 30, 2022 14:29:54   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
R.G. wrote:
NX Studio can export 16 bit TIFF. Most people using NX Studio will be primarily interested in using it as a raw converter.

But you can't get a 16-bit raw file from NX Studio like you do from DxO PureRaw 2.

RawDigger does not do any noise reduction or sharpening to display the image based on the NEF or the DNG. That's why you can see the noise reduction and sharpening that DxO PureRaw 2 did to create the 16-bit raw DNG.

NX Studio does the demosaicing to create a raster image and then goes to work on that image to remove the noise. The TIFF is created at the end of that process so you can open it in a raster editor like Photoshop and continue to develop the image. But in that case, all of the subsequent edits need to be saved as 16-bit TIFF until you are done and export a JPEG for printing.

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May 30, 2022 14:43:07   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
Elliott,
I think too many people are hung up on 'noise'. It's unfortunate that the electrical engineering term migrated to digital photography. For those of us who worked with film to start, and may still do so, grain is part of the image. Generally, the visibility of grain increases along with higher ISO settings. This is true with both film and digital. Now the difference is grain is somewhat random throughout an image where noise is rectilinear. That may result in noise being a bit more noticeable.

Software companies wish to expound on the concept that noise is the worst thing digital photographers confront but they have a solution. In reality, my concern would be how the noise removal software discerns between an actual noise pixel and a pixel that contains a minuscule amount of actual image data. Thus, eliminating or reducing noise may inadvertently remove small details that are critical to the sharpness of an image.

There are exposure techniques that can mitigate noise considerably while maintaining a maximum of detail within an image.
--Bob

ecobin wrote:
I tried the Nikon software (the latest is NX Studio) several times and never liked it, mostly since there are no layers and masking is almost non-existent. So I didn't see any use for it. I've been converting raw files (and processing) in Affinity Photo (AP) and prior to using AP I did the same in Photoshop. My latest processing was to first convert raw files in either DxO Pure Raw or Topaz DeNoise AI and then process in AP.

One of our UHH members sent me a PM indicating that some of my images lacked detail - he was correct. I spent hours trying to figure out what I did wrong and in the process found other images that lacked detail. The only process that removed detail was de-noising. I tried different settings in Topaz and in DxO with no improvement. Then I had an epiphany - I downloaded the latest version of Nikon's NX Studio (free) and converted one of the raw files into the Nikon TIF format (no adjustments made, just conversion) and took the TIF into Affinity Photo. WOW - no loss of detail and minimal noise which is easily adjusted in AP. Then I did the same processing as I had done in AF and the results are so much better. I then used this same procedure to many other photos and got similarly improved results.

NX Studio can batch convert, and send any converted TIF file directly to your post-processing program of choice - it's easy to figure out how - so no need to save the TIF file.

Give it a try and you'll change how you process as I have. I will no longer use either DxO Pure Raw or Topaz DeNoise.
I tried the Nikon software (the latest is NX Studi... (show quote)

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May 30, 2022 15:08:45   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
rmalarz wrote:
Elliott,
I think too many people are hung up on 'noise'.

Software companies wish to expound on the concept that noise is the worst thing digital photographers confront but they have a solution. In reality, my concern would be how the noise removal software discerns between an actual noise pixel and a pixel that contains a minuscule amount of actual image data.

One person's noise is another one's data.

Camera and software providers would love us to spend more money so they hype their solutions. That's exactly the kind of rabbit hole we dive into whenever this topic comes up. But in fact, noise is not as important as we might think.

Looking at an image at 100% is not the way to judge it. All we need to do is to make the largest print we can on our own printer and see if we can find any noise. Most of the time we can't.

Now ask any non-photographer to objectively look at your images. Without leading them to it, see if anyone mentions noise. That's probably the last thing they might notice.

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May 30, 2022 15:11:34   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
rmalarz wrote:
Elliott,
I think too many people are hung up on 'noise'. It's unfortunate that the electrical engineering term migrated to digital photography. For those of us who worked with film to start, and may still do so, grain is part of the image. Generally, the visibility of grain increases along with higher ISO settings. This is true with both film and digital. Now the difference is grain is somewhat random throughout an image where noise is rectilinear. That may result in noise being a bit more noticeable.

Software companies wish to expound on the concept that noise is the worst thing digital photographers confront but they have a solution. In reality, my concern would be how the noise removal software discerns between an actual noise pixel and a pixel that contains a minuscule amount of actual image data. Thus, eliminating or reducing noise may inadvertently remove small details that are critical to the sharpness of an image.

There are exposure techniques that can mitigate noise considerably while maintaining a maximum of detail within an image.
--Bob
Elliott, br I think too many people are hung up on... (show quote)


Exactly!!

And usually low to mild digital noise is not really discernible at "normal" viewing distances, it is more often the purview of the pixel peeper crowd.

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May 30, 2022 15:15:26   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
JD750 wrote:
Exactly!!

And usually low to mild digital noise is not really discernible at "normal" viewing distances, it is more often the purview of the pixel peeper crowd.

Eventually, common sense bubbles to the surface.

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May 30, 2022 15:20:02   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
R.G. wrote:
If your main objective is to use Nikon's own software to render the raw files, you don't have to go anywhere near any jpeg settings or processes (other than to zero them in Picture Control). As I said before, third party raw converter providers have to reverse engineer what Nikon have done but Nikon don't have to do that. There are people more informed than me that are saying the proprietary software is the best for rendering raw files. What I've been saying all along is that you can eliminate any unwanted jpeg-oriented adjustments in Picture Control.
If your main objective is to use Nikon's own softw... (show quote)

I see no point there. If you use NX Studio to generate a 16 bit TIFF instead of a JPEG you get the same EXPEED processing of the raw data -- same demosaicing, etc. Zeroing Picture Controls doesn't make any of that better.
R.G. wrote:
The only non-Nikon raw converter that I've compared NX to is On1 and I was looking specifically at softness (HERE). I couldn't see any difference between the two where softness is concerned.

That's a concern for me -- rendering fine detail. I do see a difference between what the camera and NX Studio produce versus alternative processors which can do a better job. Here's an example. I opened the NEF file in NX Studio, zeroed all the Picture Control settings and generated a 16 bit TIFF. DXO PL-5 has a deservedly excellent reputation for it's Bayer demosaicing. It does a better job. Likewise SilkyPix provides an option to adjust the demosaicing sharpness. I pushed it all the way up and arguably they've provided adjustment there that's creating demosaicing artifacts but it's nice to have choice -- definitely squeezing more detail from that NEF file. The camera/NX Studio don't get maximum possible detail from the raw file. Skipping the JPEG output and creating a TIFF won't help.


(Download)

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May 30, 2022 15:42:28   #
tenny52 Loc: San Francisco
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
When you run out of diskspace working in a longer (time / steps) workflow with monstrous and unnecessary TIFFs, you might not find this idea so 'free'.

More effective would be learning and applying the basics of Noise Processing and Sharpening. Neither of these settings are applied to the RAW files. Instead, the RAW photographer is responsible for understanding and applying that knowledge onto / into their images during the edit process. NX studio is doing nothing more than the human digital editor should be doing themselves in a workflow that skips an extraneous step in unneeded software and the associated TIFF transfer file.

These two posts are specific to LR. The ideas are applicable to all professional-grade software.

Basics of noise processing

Basics of Lightroom Sharpening
When you run out of diskspace working in a longer ... (show quote)



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May 30, 2022 15:43:42   #
pego101
 
MUST READ? LOL. Absolutely NOT. Use Lightroom and Photoshop.

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May 30, 2022 15:44:22   #
ecobin Loc: Paoli, PA
 
Muddyvalley wrote:
Interesting. I downloaded a trial copy of DXO PureRaw 2, and when I try it out on a Z9 NEF, I get a notice that it doesn't yet support raw files from the Z9. Does this mean that the older version supports Z9 raw files?


Vistor,
DxO PureRaw 2 support the Z9 RAW Lossless compression file type but not High efficiency or High efficiency*.
For this reason I use the Lossless compression mode.

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May 30, 2022 15:48:32   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
Ysarex wrote:
That's a concern for me -- rendering fine detail. I do see a difference between what the camera and NX Studio produce versus alternative processors which can do a better job. Here's an example. I opened the NEF file in NX Studio, zeroed all the Picture Control settings and generated a 16 bit TIFF. DXO PL-5 has a deservedly excellent reputation for it's Bayer demosaicing. It does a better job. Likewise SilkyPix provides an option to adjust the demosaicing sharpness. I pushed it all the way up and arguably they've provided adjustment there that's creating demosaicing artifacts but it's nice to have choice -- definitely squeezing more detail from that NEF file. The camera/NX Studio don't get maximum possible detail from the raw file. Skipping the JPEG output and creating a TIFF won't help.
That's a concern for me -- rendering fine detail. ... (show quote)


The perceived wisdom was that it's better to use proprietary software for raw conversion. If the differences above aren't just due to different amounts of sharpening then that perceived wisdom must be becoming out of date. However, there's more to raw conversion than detail extraction. Colour accuracy may be a major factor for some, to mention just one possibility. Not being an expert on raw conversion I can't comment on the differences between proprietary and third party raw converters, but if the above perceived wisdom is becoming out of date, it's good news for all of us.

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May 30, 2022 15:51:09   #
ecobin Loc: Paoli, PA
 
rmalarz wrote:
Elliott,
I think too many people are hung up on 'noise'. It's unfortunate that the electrical engineering term migrated to digital photography. For those of us who worked with film to start, and may still do so, grain is part of the image. Generally, the visibility of grain increases along with higher ISO settings. This is true with both film and digital. Now the difference is grain is somewhat random throughout an image where noise is rectilinear. That may result in noise being a bit more noticeable.

Software companies wish to expound on the concept that noise is the worst thing digital photographers confront but they have a solution. In reality, my concern would be how the noise removal software discerns between an actual noise pixel and a pixel that contains a minuscule amount of actual image data. Thus, eliminating or reducing noise may inadvertently remove small details that are critical to the sharpness of an image.

There are exposure techniques that can mitigate noise considerably while maintaining a maximum of detail within an image.
--Bob
Elliott, br I think too many people are hung up on... (show quote)


Yes, Bob I agree. My post started off as commenting on raw conversion and is now about noise. I'll follow-up with another post here as I've done more testing but I maintain that I prefer NX Studio for raw conversion for a high majority of my shots. For shots with iso above 1600 then DxO Pure Raw will be the conversion I use.
Thanks, Bob

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May 30, 2022 15:54:20   #
yssirk123 Loc: New Jersey
 
Thanks for the tip, Elliott - I will give it a try.

In the old days I use to use whatever the current version of Nikon software was just for the RAW conversion, but stopped doing that years ago.

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May 30, 2022 16:03:36   #
Perspicacious Loc: CA
 
That is exactly what I have been doing with Sigma RAW files for years. I save the RAW files then batch convert them to TIF for processing in Photomatix Pro if HDR and Lightroom for the rest. Pretty happy with the results.

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