Advark

American education to be in a dismal state????

Yes, so dismal we just landed a vehicle on Mars to
gather samples from Mars and return to earth.

Yes, so dismal we have developed Covid 19 vaccines
to stop the possible death of the earth's population.

Yes, so dismal we medical scientists and researchers
who have made it possible for people to live beyond
60 years of age.

Yes, I could go on and on but you get the idea

parmruss

RS Bandit

Superb!!!!

A thinker's THINKER and an intellectuals INTELLECTUAL!!

19dwayne39 Loc: Fort Worth, Texas

Dr. Sowell is a brilliant economist, while also being a man whose thoughts are traditional, sound & logical. Search his name on "you tube" & you will find many in detail interviews where he is interviewed on various diverse topics. I find his talks informing & entertaining, whether I agree with him or not. Any time you spend reading his articles or books or listening to him will time very well spent. I was not aware of his skills in photography so will have to do an internet search.

robertjerl Loc: Corona, California

Eric Hoffer was very good also "The Longshoreman Philosopher". A union longshoreman in San Francisco who educated himself using the public library among other resources. The establishment pretty much ignored him too but the year he died (1983) President Reagan gave him the Medal of Freedom. I seem to remember him and his books mentioned in Dr Sowell's writings long ago.

Angel Star Photography Loc: Tacoma, WA

I have watched this a couple of times over the past month and had thought to post it here partly because of his interest in photography. He is definitely someone worth following and from whom a great wealth of knowledge can be gained. I have many of his books as well as another individual I would recommend, Walter E Williams.

In listening to these two, it is apparent to me that Economics needs to be taught as one of the fundamental courses in high school and earlier if possible. In doing so, not only would students have a better understanding of how the world operates but I think history would be far more interesting as would, possibly, mathematics. I have long thought that economics, finance, and investing needs to be a part of the curriculum as much as basics. If we could instill this knowledge early on, I don't believe many would have the struggles they have in planning their futures and there would be less dependency on the government to fill the gaps.

Charles

robertjerl Loc: Corona, California

I spent 35 years as a classroom teacher in Los Angeles. Yes our education system is in dismal shape. Some places it is excellent+, others only so-so but far too many places it is a disaster. But in every place there are always teachers, sometimes a whole school that outperform the rest and a % of students who will learn well in spite of the system.

Here in CA even back in the late 50's and early 60's when CA had a very good reputation for education there were problems.
1960, I had just moved to CA - Ceres up by Modesto. 1st Period, 1st day of school I was signing into a 10th Grade Civics class and I had a Southern Accent that made molasses flowing on dry ice look fast. The teacher assumed that "talks slow" = must think slow. As I was getting my book and signing the book card (my cursive always has been a disaster) he told me that if I had trouble reading the book the honors students did tutoring and help with homework in the library after school. (He should have known better, he was a ranch kid from South Dakota.) I was so surprised I laughed at what he said. (in Kentucky that would have been a trip to the office) He just looked startled and asked me what was so funny. My answer "This is the same book I used for Civics in 5th grade in Kentucky. (looked in the front) And the same edition."
Later a couple of other students asked me how I knew what edition the book was. I showed them the publisher's information in the front of the book - they didn't even seem to know that was in the book.
Two years later when I moved back to my home town for 12th grade I almost flunked the College Prep track the first report card of the fall semester - I had gotten intellectually lazy the CA schools were so much easier than back home in Kentucky. (extreme Western Kentucky, Ballard County where the Ohio and Mississippi join) I had to get it in gear and get back up to speed. By mid spring semester (1963) when all 12th graders in Kentucky took the U of K entrance exam* I managed to get a 99th percentile overall but I had one subject field in the high 80's and I got pretty upset at myself. The next year in my first year of college at what was then Paducah Jr College I had a class taught by the school president-who was on a committee that wrote IQ and achievement tests for the Department of Education. He used us for test subjects of the draft tests. On the standard IQ test they were developing for the military I was in a four way tie for high score out of 150 in our large lecture class. He also had us take an IQ test they were developing for the illiterate. All symbols, pictures etc., almost no words in it. Sales of head ache meds went way up in the student store that day and the cafeteria ran out of coffee when we got out of class. The next day when he asked us what we thought of the test he admitted that their testing indicated that the better you could read it either lowered your score or induced extreme stress, headaches etc. I scored 98th percentile on that one. He added that those with talent in various arts did better than anyone on that test.

*This was in the days before the national move for achievement tests for all students everywhere. Kentucky used the U of K entrance exam to grade and compare all the schools/students in the state.

Advark

what are your realistic thoughts on how public schools can be improved?

Are the private schools and schools run by religious organizations any better
than the public schools.

As to public education funding, Michigan's Lottery Net Proceeds got to the
public education system. On the face of it, that sounds great. However, I
wonder if it is so great. Doesn't the State Legislature have good information
as to the likely net proceeds from the Lottery and don't they take that in to
account when they decide how much public money will go to public education.
They think public education should get $X dollars (NOT HOW MUCH IT NEEDS) and
then reduces that amount by the estimated Lottery revenue.

Are there efficiency measures public school could take?

Are there efficiency measures public colleges and universities
could take to reduce the amounts they "beg" from the
state legislature.

This was way tooooo lonnng. I apologize.

Reuss Griffiths Loc: Ravenna, Ohio

Charles, I agree with many of your observations. I don't know if Economics is the defining subject to be used as a model for understanding complex subjects. But subjects that promote the scientific method, logic and critical thinking need to be in there somewhere. As far as others to follow, I too am a fan of Walter Williams who has sadly left us recently. I was particularly attracted by his sense of humor. Victor David Hanson, another of my heroes was also prominently featured. Glad you took the time to share your views.

Reuss Griffiths Loc: Ravenna, Ohio

Advark, I believe you could go on and on and I'm afraid you might. I don't think that cherry-picking accomplishments is an adequate method for evaluating our educational system. Dr. Sowell spent much time and resouces studying and analysing our educational system and drew much different conclusions than you. To quote Dr. Sowell.

"Of all ignorance, the ignorance of the educated is the most dangerous. Not only are educated people likely to have more influence, they are the last people to suspect that they don't know what they are talking about when they go outside their narrow fields."

Dennis833 Loc: Australia

Thanks for posting. I saw him standing behind a Linhof Technika at the start of the film. So he wasn't always a Nikon man.

fetzler Loc: North West PA

You might consider that graduate schools are full of Chinese, Indian and other foreign students. American students are almost absent in technical departments. Even the space program was started by German scientists. Our schools indeed short change many students but a few bright ones manage to achieve great success.

You might also note that the director of research at Pfizer that developed the COVID vaccine without government funding was educated in Sweden. He and I are former colleagues.

Angel Star Photography Loc: Tacoma, WA

I couldn't help but smile at your post. I had a somewhat similar experience. When my Dad was transferred to McChord AFB from Gunter AFB in Montgomery, Alabama I was in the middle of my 10 year. My parents were rather busy with other activities trying to get situated here in the Northwest and left my registration and class selections to me. I recall having a long discussion with the school counselor regarding many of the subjects and which ones I should take and the one that I lost out on was Biology. The school had two directions for Biology. There was General Biology and Biology BSCS. The latter was intended for those who planned to go on to pre-med and while that was not my plan, the descriptions of the two told me that I would be better off in the latter. Yet, the counselor stated that my class at Sidney Lanier HS in Montgomery stated it was General Biology and therefore I should go into the same as he was certain I would not be able to handle the Biology BSCS. I tried very hard to convince him that everything they listed in the course description is what I had already studied but he was not going to budge. I guess he wanted at least one win.

As it turned out, starting in the middle of the General Biology class, I was already way ahead and quickly became bored. I became so bored that I asked the teacher for the Biology BSCS if I could participate in his class. He allowed me to participate with the understanding that he had no additional books and thus could not offer me one. If I was willing to attend under those conditions he would welcome me as any other student. Fast forward to the final exams. I took the final exams for both Biology courses. The BSCS teacher said that I didn't need to take the exam as it would not do anything for my grade but I chose to treat the class as though it did. I had aced the General Biology exam but had no idea how I did on the BSCS exam. It wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. Later, the BSCS teacher came over to my teacher and with a stern voice, said to my teacher, "We need to talk about your student." My teacher was a bit stunned as he knew nothing about what I had done and I thought for sure a chastising was forthcoming and I had bombed out. Shockingly, the teacher followed up with, "Your student should have been teaching your class!" He went to explain how I had diligently attended the lectures, had no book, and took the final exam achieving a 97%---higher than any of his students in his class who had books.

All through the rest of my high school, I did miss the demands of the schools in Montgomery as well as the attention that was given to the students not only from the academic side but from all sources around. To this, I give another example. I was also in the high school band. In Alabama, the band went where ever the football team went and they were considered just as important. So much so, that when we were traveling to Huntsville for a major game between two of the biggest rivals at that time, Robert E Lee and Sidney Lanier our band director stopped the convoy to make a phone call because we were half way to Huntsville and running very late. We all thought we were going to turn back and it was game over for us. Instead, the highway patrol showed up and gave us a full speed escort into Huntsville complete with flashing lights and sirens! I never saw that here nor did I ever experience the kind of showmanship that was expected of us at Sidney Lanier. Our band director had modeled us after the University of Alabama band and I recall on my very first day for the band which was in the middle of August before school season began, the speech that he gave. Four things I will quote as they have stuck with me through my military life and beyond to this day:

"There are four major rules I expect you to follow if you wish to be a part of this band:
1. The mission comes first.
2. The equipment is second.
3. Your fellow man is third and
4. You ARE last!"

Also differences in how we performed---all music, movements, and positions were memorized. There were no papers, notes, etc. allowed on the field even in practice. You better know your stuff before you get on the field. My experience here in the Northwest was that we had our music on our instruments even during the show. Sidney Lanier shows were constantly flowing, changing, and moving even when the music changed. It was very well choreographed and there were no disruptions in movement across the field as the music changed. Meanwhile, here we formed an initial block, played a piece, reformed into something else, played a piece to its end, reformed, played, etc., etc.

Being a military brat I had the opportunity to have been in 26 cities, states, and one country by the time I made it to McChord AFB. In reflection, there is definitely areas where more attention is given to education of the children than other areas. Some of it due to politics, some of is due to the involvement of the people and the expectations of those people (some prefer the hard knock approach while others prefer the kid glove treatment---I've seen it both ways), and much of it is driven by the motivation, drive, and the principles of the teachers involved. I have seen this even in the Northwest as toured around cities and towns giving lectures and speeches to students. I found that small towns removed from the metropolitan areas were motivated to insure their students had just as much of an opportunity as those in the cities. To that end, they would beg, borrow, negotiate with companies and charity organizations to obtain the materials they needed and they made things happen. When I approached a well-known school here in Tacoma and asked them why they don't try to offer their students the same opportunities, I was told that if the board felt it was necessary, they would provide the funds to do it.

I could go on and on with examples and experiences but I think I have said enough. I am not in academia professionally. I have taught when asked at Highline CC and the University of Phoenix, given talks at DeVry University as well as many other schools, and I have been a judge for the Future Business Leaders of America competitions. There good and bad as with all things; however, the overall whole has not been impressive and it should not be that way. I think on one side we have those who understand the importance and expect quality while on another side we have far too many who have taken things for granted and possibly assume that things will work out in the end.

Angel Star Photography Loc: Tacoma, WA

Excellent points and my thoughts as well. I work for a major manufacturer that decided we needed to bring in graduates from outside the U.S. The reasoning---we weren't getting the quality of graduates who could understand what we needed and we were in a mode of doing remedial training. That was an interim solution. We also began working with the universities to drive what needed to be taught and how. Yet, if we look around, from where are many of the technological knowledge resources coming?

Angel Star Photography Loc: Tacoma, WA

Reuss,

I am in total agreement with you. My thoughts on including Economics was that it should be inclusive of all those that promote the understanding of complex subjects. It should not be a subject ignored or lightly addressed but take its position along side the sciences, mathematics, etc. It should be considered as a minimum requirement just as the other subjects. This would require some thought into how to evolve such an approach which I would recommend eliminating some electives.

Victor David Hanson is another one of my favorites. I have enjoyed many of his talks as well and particularly liked his talk about Patton. You can find it on YouTube if you haven't seen it, yet. Overall, I have actually enjoyed many of the talks from the Hoover Institute and more recently the Free to Choose Network. Great resources...