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Interesting Take on Electric Cars
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Dec 4, 2020 10:40:25   #
2Dragons Loc: The Back of Beyond
 
Bison Bud wrote:
While I do agree that the original poster's calculation price per Kilowatt/Hour is very high (averages around 13 cents around here), I do think that he makes some very good points that really need to be considered. It is true that our power distribution system can not handle charging everyone's cars without major improvements. Geese, we have "Brown outs" in the summertime now because of everyone running their A/C. He also makes a valid point about electric cars not paying their fair share of taxes at the pump, but some States are beginning to catch on to this and charging extra at registration as also mentioned by another poster, however, an added $50.00 seems pretty reasonable to me. Another factor to consider is the manufacture and disposal of all the batteries needed and their "New Forms" of pollution. Frankly, many of the toxic metals used in these batteries end up in our ground water and this could prove to be an even bigger problem than current air pollution and we need to research this throughly before making a leap of faith to electric powered vehicles.

Frankly, we need to research every possible source of alternative energy and make smart decisions going forward rather than make such a leap of faith to abandon fossil fuels. Maybe we can at some point, but at 67 I don't expect to see it in my lifetime. It would take at least that long to update the power grid enough to allow everyone to charge their electric cars and no one really knows how we're going to pay for that. Unfortunately, this sort of thing can be a very emotional issue, especially for those that want something done right now, but in depth research is needed and only actual science will tell the real tale and guide us properly. We need to push in the right direction, but have reasonable expectations as well.

In my opinion, hydrogen is a good candidate for the future. It's one of the most plentiful elements in the universe and it has a huge energy potential and burns cleaner than anything that I no of out there. The typical by product from hydrogen combustion is water. However, there are big problems to fix before hydrogen can become mainstream. First of all, typical generation of hydrogen is not cost effective and can also pollute. The cleanest way to produce hydrogen is through electrolosis, but this is time consuming and also requires power to produce and the volumes needed would be extrodinary to say the least. Secondly, storage of the hydrogen produced is also a tricky matter. It is very explosive and large quantities stored in any one location could be a huge hazard to public safety. Therefore, we need to find a way to safely store and handle this gas or maybe chemically convert it into a less explosive solid that can be converted back to a gas when used. However, this is going to be expensive and take time to develop as well.

All in all, electric cars are probably not the immediate solution many are hoping for and I pray that the leaders of this country and the world are smart enough to realize this and invest in other technologies and research before trying to eliminate the internal combustion engine and the use of fossil fuels in our everyday lives. Meanwhile, we do need to continue to reduce emissions and limit the air pollution from the use of fossil fuels as much as possible. Frankly, we have made some real progress in our cars and our power plants over the last 10 to 20 years and we need to continue these efforts while we continue to invest in alternatives and the science to lead us in the proper direction.
While I do agree that the original poster's calcul... (show quote)



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Dec 4, 2020 10:41:18   #
docerz
 
Bingo! I've never seen so much misinformation on a single subject. If you don't like EV's just stick with your ICE vehicle. Change is always difficult for we in the "older" generation. BTW... we are not changing anyones mind one way or another.

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Dec 4, 2020 10:58:26   #
cbabcock
 
The entity that supplies electricity to my local (municipally owned) electric utility has a solar farm that supplies much of that electricity. It has a goal, and a plan, to completely eliminate the use of fossil fuels in its power stations within the next 10 years. At that point, no emissions from those stations.
I see that as a good thing.

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Dec 4, 2020 10:59:08   #
chase4 Loc: Punta Corona, California
 
docerz wrote:
Bingo! I've never seen so much misinformation on a single subject. If you don't like EV's just stick with your ICE vehicle. Change is always difficult for we in the "older" generation. BTW... we are not changing anyones mind one way or another.


Question for you and all the others that have replied/commented on this thread:

Where does one get true, unbiased accurate information and/or data ? Obviously not from the mainstream media (read commercial, profit driven business), both electronic and print. Not from the out of control social media like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc. The closest thing to the truth, I believe, might be found in the peer-reviewed scientific journals and textbooks and even some of them have been debunked if one has the time and interest to checkout the references and resources used in such publications. I have written a number of such publications and am familiar with this area. Back to the basic question: where do you get the information you can really believe and or trust?

Just Askin'.......chase

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Dec 4, 2020 11:00:59   #
sippyjug104 Loc: Missouri
 
The 'Laws of Physics' are not simply good ideas...they are the LAW and ones that can't be broken.

The Law of the Conservation of Energy states that: "Total energy is constant in any process. It may change in form or be transferred from one system to another, but the total remains the same."

The energy used by Electric Cars simply trade one form of energy for another. Electrical power generation is not 100% efficient nor is the amount transmitted in its distribution. Of course the cars are not 100% efficient either so it takes more initial fuel to generate the gross amount of energy to provide the net output of the car.

Electric cars also trade one form of pollution for one much greater by electric generation however there are far less other chemicals expelled into the air compared to internal combustion of gasoline.

In time different forms of vehicle energy will be perfected, such as hydrogen fuel cells that have 'zero' emissions.

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Dec 4, 2020 11:06:42   #
pendennis
 
TriX wrote:
I think you mean 100 and 200 amp servIce, not watts. The fact is that since you can slow charge EVs overnight from a standard 115VAC circuit, there’s no practical way to regulate it or require a separate meter. Your clothes dryer, HW heater, A/C and electric stove all draw as much current as an electric car charging on 230V, and I’m betting there are times when you use at least 2 or maybe 3 of these devices at the same time during a given day, so if the EV charges while you’re asleep when only the A/C is on, no service upgrade necessary. Also, as houses get larger, a good percentage of modern houses are built with 200 Amp service anyway.
I think you mean 100 and 200 amp servIce, not watt... (show quote)


Correct, and thank you for the correction.

I'm looking at this from a road revenue perspective, and the states are going to mandate electricity taxes to replace gradually lessening of gasoline/diesel tax revenues. Unless there's some magical way to determine battery charging usage, there will have to be a separate meter for that purpose. There are already service modifications for A/C metering and other exceptions (brown outs, etc.).

Most new construction in Michigan uses 200 amp service, then additional capacity is a moot point for those folks. However, there are huge numbers of existing homes which have 100 amp service. Those will need new service amperage, and there will be additional service requirements on the feeds from the utilities.

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Dec 4, 2020 11:07:17   #
jackm1943 Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
 
Bridges wrote:
Why is the debate about fossil fuels vs electric? Those are only two sources of power. Hydrogen is the most plentiful element in the world and is used in powering vehicles -- why not expand research into that and other possible means of generating power?


It's the most plentiful element in the universe!

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Dec 4, 2020 11:13:19   #
docerz
 
Unfortunately I think everyone has a biased viewpoint to some degree. So tooooo answer your question... beats me. Read as much as you can from diverse sources and then try to exercise common sense.

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Dec 4, 2020 11:14:18   #
stogieboy Loc: Marlboro, NY
 
I think the future is in the Mr. Fusion fuel technology they showed us at the end of "Back to the Future."

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Dec 4, 2020 11:43:07   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
I know several people who have electric or hybrid plug-in cars. I asked them about the cost of electricity. I forget the details, but it doesn't even come close to the cost of putting twenty gallons of gas in a car. There's no denying that it takes a power plant to generate that extra electricity, but how much is it, really? An electric car does not have a tailpipe spewing pollution. When you start talking electricity, cars, numbers, and pollution, there are so many variables, that coming up with "The Number" is impossible.

I doubt I'll live long enough to see electric cars become the norm. My Honda Fit has averaged 43.4 MPG for the past 86,000 miles. I'm satisfied with that. I had considered getting a Prius, but I did the math, and I doubt I would ever break even, let along come out ahead.

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Dec 4, 2020 11:53:12   #
Bmarsh Loc: Bellaire, MI
 
I think the rate mentioned here as $1.16 per kWh is waaay too high, unless I'm getting a real bargain.

I pay $.108. (11 cents) here in northern Michigan.

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Dec 4, 2020 12:05:13   #
Runninglate Loc: Saint Cloud, Florida
 
chase4 wrote:
This topic should not be driven by political ideology, but science.


Yep, that's my hope that we only discuss the science aspects here and NOT politics. chase[/quote]

Some do not believe in science but will follow a politician no matter what he or she says. But, like you I do hope it is possible.

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Dec 4, 2020 12:15:12   #
thzehner
 
You started a great discussion! All current energy production requires fossil fuels. Current technology can make energy production and use more efficient but none of them are solutions. More people are using more energy and that usage is greater than the efficiencies that have been achieved. The only significant current response to our energy dilemma is to reduce consumption.

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Dec 4, 2020 12:17:08   #
saichiez Loc: Beautiful Central Oregon
 
Legislating sound systems on electric cars adds a cost in pedestrian death tolls. Pedestrian fatalities due to death of people being run down by cars they don't hear coming is a real life factor in the use of electric power. Adding a functional sound system that warns of approaching electric vehicles mowing down pedestrians refutes the math giv en so far in this post.

Keep your hearing aids charged up folks. This is a real life cost addition to the electric car market. "oops, I didn't hear it coming.........."

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Dec 4, 2020 12:20:08   #
lwiley Loc: Los Banos, CA, USA
 
How many people remember a "NEW TECHNOLOGY" from a few years ago tried by Bill Lear, the 'Closed loop steam turbine power plant' that he used for urban busses? The death of Bill Lear effectively killed that technology project.

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