Kiwi - in - Syd Loc: Sydney Australia

So guys do you think that I should save all my Raw files for posterity.

My photo guru does weddings. he says he deletes all his Raw files after 18mths and only saves the final JPGs he used for printing.

Searcher Loc: Kent, England

Thanks for your comments and constructive way of dealing with the problem. The picture is not what I consider a great one to save, nor am I particularly attached to it. I just wondered what on earth had happened to it.


That's exactly what I've always believed.
------------------------------------------------------------
From rts2568
Very misleading information 'achammar'. Saved files, eg, open and save to another location as I suspect some were in this thread, may deteriorate if filed in a lossable format. JPG files are hazardless if being changed from one location to another. Some people I have helped, used to open files as they were "moving(?)\transferring' them, and saving after viewing to the new location.

It is most important for the learners or the inexperienced to understand that JPEG files can detiorate. Better to be sure than sorry!

As to the photo concerned, a useful piece of advice would have been more welcome. The photo concerned is not a good package of data anyway and there are a lot of reasons why this one is not satisfactory as the OP would like, if for no other reason than old images would often have been produced on older hardware with inferior light capturing/handling abilities but, no matter, knowing that a JPEG can lose data while transferring them to other locations, no matter by what method, is more important than being given the impression that they can't.
rts2568

rts2568 - You are saying (in a very kindly manner) the picture is rubbishy. I entirely agree with you. I was trying to get the hang of my first real digital camera at the time, and shot anything and everything in sight. If there were a competition for the worst composition, exposure and focus this one would not win, but I have quite a few serious contenders from those early years. Notice the filename is 0001 - this was the very first pic I took using the Finepix f401 (which I still have but don't use anymore.
------------------------------------------------------------From Mtnman
Both are right. It depends on how you "move" the files. If you use "Save as" to a new location jpegs will deteriorate. You recompress the file.

If you just copy (copy and paste or move) a jpeg from one location to another it will not deteriorate. It makes an exact copy.
Ten years ago, did I "Save As" or did I copy/paste or drag? Difficult one. I hope I dragged as I do now, but certainly would not swear to it. in ten years I've probably had about ten computers and three or four external drives.
------------------------------------------------------------From Elliot Design
You say the image was never PP'd, could you possibly have forgotten that is was retouched at some point years ago? The reason I'm asking is because I'm totally confused how the treetops on the left side are darker than the leaves below them, also this shows in a few more smaller places along the tree horizon and appears to be an attempt to mask the sky area. The white in the sky is a complete washout, I downloaded the file and used a 0% tolerance mask and it chose the whole white area, meaning there are no variations in this whole area. The file seems to be missing color depth all across the spectrum, there are no smooth transitions of color anywhere but that cannot be caused by just copying and moving a file from one storage device to other. You may have used a program that "saved" a copy of the original each time you opened it or you may have just used "Ctrl-S" each time you opened it and closed it, saving jpg's will deteriorate with each new "save" but copying the original only duplicates the 1's and 0's of a digital file and in no way causes any deterioration or changes to the file. Don't just take my word for it, I've only worked with digital images of every major format in my business for 24 years, and I can pull up jpg's that I have moved from computer to computer through hard drives, flash drives, cd's and floppies and the files are exactly the same today as they were years ago.

Definitely no PP, I only started making "improvements" and repairs two years ago, and always save as TIFF or PSD. However you have sewn an idea which MIGHT explain something. I used to use the Fuji viewer to load pics. from my camera to the computer. Although I have no way of checking now, I am wondering if there was some form of applied preset on import.

jeep_daddy Loc: Prescott AZ

I don't think that digital data can suffer from moving or storing. It's like the digital image on your TV. It's either good, or it's breaking up and posterized. The image from your Fuji camera is from pretty old technology back in 2002. Small gamut color spaces were common and cameras that only shoot in 8bit modes were common. Newer cameras shoot in AdobeRGB color space and most cameras today shoot in more bit depth. Your problem with the sky is low gamut and low bit depth causing banding in the sky. I tried to reduce the banding and was a little bit successful but not for a picture that I'd hang on my wall. Google how to get rid of color banding and see what comes up. I found a site that gave instructions to select the affected area, reduce saturation, add noise, then add Gaussian blur. It worked best when I converted the image to a 16bit image first. but still had marginal results.

Searcher Loc: Kent, England

I tried this little test with inconclusive results

Exported from Lightroom at 1000x665 pixels, reduced from 3008 x 2000 pixels medium quality jpg - named Aeroplane (1 of 20). Opened this pic and "save as" Aeroplane (2 of 20).
I repeated this and produced a total of 20 jpgs, each one sved from the previous. Here are numbers 1 and 20.
A little difference especially around the plane and on the wings.

Save One of Twenty


Save twenty of twenty

rts2568

To Gpappy
From rts2568

This is certainly true, and I've run a lot of tests to try and measure the amount of degradation, but it varies from file to file it seems. So the lesson here is, just keep in mind that your JPGs are susceptible to loss when saved so always have your prised files saved in TIFF or other lossless\RAW file and play around with the JPEGs when you must.
The trouble with transferring files for BU purposes, unless you do so as a batch process, in one go so to speak, there is the tendency to open files as you go to bring back memories etc and potentially you can save by mistake without even thinking, even make an alteration or etc and data will be lost, large or small it doesn't matter - so save in a lossless file formats. When you open one and want to work on it, save a copy as a JPG if you must and play but make sure you have it renamed as such. If you use Photoshop, then Photoshop or TIFF files are in fact better to work with anyway - check out your editing software.

Just remember that JPGs are loss-able files so always consider them at risk.

For day to day shots, experiments, play around with for learning etc, they can be quicker throughput but if you are going to want to work to a finish and store a file permanently, use a lossless format. Tiffs are pretty universal.

rts2568

mcveed Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia (between trips)

Blow both of those up to 100% and look again.

Beercan31 Loc: Lost & Found

this is so true.

the best advice I was ever give is
1. download photos to a CD and or to a external hard drive first"
2. never move them from there spot.
3. never alter the original
4. always copy the original.

Yes its true even a good quality CD will degrade over time. but if they are kept in a cool dry, sun light free area they will last a long time.

jmdusty Loc: greater DaytonOh. area

Just one quick point and I too have been a computer nerd since Tandy Dose days, long before "Chicago" which is windows. If a file, jpeg or txt is say 1.5k, it will remain 1.5k no mater how any times you move it. BUT... re-save a jpeg and it will no longer be 1.5k.

Dusty

achammar Loc: Idaho

This is exactly correct. That is because Windows Explorer makes an exact copy. Jpegs can not be changed by the operating system. Windows Explorer is not cabable of changing a jpeg in any way. It only knows to make an exact copy when copying or moving, and that's all it knows that it must do successfully. The only way a jpeg can change is by some kind of photo editing software, and then be resaved as many have already mentioned. You are completely safe to move or copy files with windows explorer all you want, and as many times as you want, but I recommend copying, then deleting the old copy in place of moving. Also, just as a precaution, don't let any photo software copy files for you just to be on the safe side. Do it manually and it will never degrade.
I know I've posted this a couple of times now, but as rts2568 and many others posted, I do not want you to get the wrong idea that jpegs cannot degrade. They are lossless if you open them and resave them. If you want to copy one (or more)...do not open it/them. Use Windows Explorer and just copy it manually and the copy will be identical, even if you copy the copy a million times over and the last copy will be exactly the same as the original. That's the only point I was trying to make is that it is safe to copy (or move) files directly with no change.
But also there has been lots of other good advice by many others such as saving as Tiff and keeping that as an original since it is lossless when working with it.

rts2568

To jmdusty
From rts2568

Heavens to Bettsy jmdusty, it had to be "Chicago" of old to think of that, I'd never for a moment thought that we'd lose K's as well as data if we saved jpgs too many times. Damn, you got me there. I'd just understood that data within the files became corrupted, colour saturation and the like, bits replaced by other bits of less value, that sort of thing.

So, now I need help to understand too jmdusty, just what does happen to those files? There is sure to be someone out there is the fog of UHHers who'll know, you can be sure of that. Anyway, in the meantime, while we wait, it just goes to prove that saving in RAW, Photoshop lossless or lossless TIFF format is the best way to go anyway?

Thanks for that one jmdusty, your experienced insight has us all with our thinking caps on, I think.

Keep track of this thread, I'm sure there'll be lots of feedback on this one.

rts2568

Searcher Loc: Kent, England

Many thanks to all who contributed to this thread. I have learnt a few lessons:

1 Replace all jpg with tiff or psd files
2 Shoot everything in raw and save in tiff/psd
3 Only use jpg for uploading/emails etc.
4 Move pictures around especially jpg files using the copy/paste or dragging method in Windows
5 Don't use proprietory software to move picture files
6 Buy a higher resolution monitor to better see the problems on high magnification of images

I have an archive of some 50,000 medical/forensic images which I have to keep available for the next three years. These are stored on external drives with copies on CD in climate controlled secure conditions. None, thankfully, are jpg.

rts2568

To Dusty
From rts2568

How many times do you have to be told: you state above - "... jpegs cannot degrade... They are lossless if you open them and resave them...." No wonder people are confused!

Can you also tell us what operating system you use to run software editing packages like Photoshop for instance. Lots of us out here would love to find out about it so that we can do post processing in whatever editing/graphics program we have invested in and safely (without loss) edit JPEGs – Such an operating system that you infer about, would be an asset to many I suggest. No doubt you’ll provide info on this by return?

I don't know of anyone who tries to post process or alter in any way, a photo or other graphic anything, in a Windows Explorer window. So can you tell us why anyone might try, maybe we will actually learn something from you? You’ve obviously mentioned it for a reason, haven’t you? Gee, if only we knew how, it would save us all a fortune by not having to buy outside-of-Windows programs like “Light room”. Oh, perhaps it’s linked somehow to Windows “Paint”? And all these years we’ve all missed the link/thread, or are there other applications attached to Explorer maybe that allow the editing of JPEGs?

You say above: “…You are completely safe to move or copy files with windows explorer all you want, and as many times as you want, but I recommend copying, then deleting the old copy in place of moving…” I assume here, and I would think many others might be asking; ‘why is that Dusty inferring that moving a file is not safe when transferring JPEGs – that is what you are “…recommend(ing)…” dusty, or am I making a mistake when interpreting this sentence of yours? Please tell us where we have gone wrong, if so. We really do need to get this clear from someone who knows all this stuff that we don’t and if moving a file is not safe for JPEGs, then we need to know; after all, you wrote “…It (Windows) only knows to make an exact copy when copying or moving...” Not only that but we need clarification on the point of how to safely transfer any JPEG file one minute and then why you contradict yourself. Must be our interpretation, surely? So why are you recommending copying, deleting and not “…moving…” and why is this method safer for JPEG security than “moving”? So far, this lossless JPEG thing you outline is about as clear as mud to me right now – heaven only knows what the real beginner is thinking!

You’ve also written: ”… don't let any photo software copy files for you just to be on the safe side…” I’m all for being on the safe side, and I’ve heard of automation before also, but this has thrown me. Software that does its own thing? Wow; computer stuff has really passed me by, missed that one! Anyway, why is “…photo software …” more likely to be less responsible for the data they ‘copy’ than this marvelously perfect Windows operating system. Dear oh dear, can’t copy, don’t move, delete, special software we don’t yet know about, an operating software that has remained in the shadows; just how much more can you warn us against, inform us of? Looking forward to your information filled reply Dusty, after all, what are we here for other than to be reliably and informatively be updated; especially those poor confused newbie’s out there, clearly I’m one of them?

I’ve attached an acquaintance who is pleading to be fully informed also, so I hope your reply will satisfy her.

Now, just to be clear here, you will no doubt have an answer to this following contradiction with your summation above. The attached “Windows’” PAINT application window, gives the option of ‘SAVE’ or ‘SAVE AS’. Can you also inform us therefore, why this WINDOWS (graphics) APPLICATION only offers these options, rather than the safer method you describe of COPY, or was that MOVE? I’m sure we all want to know that Windows is not diddling us with an application that can’t reliably save a JPEG file without losing data? Or is SAVE the safe way to retain a finished file? Oh damn, I’m so confused, please help us all to become competent in JPEG files’ safe storage? Please!

Oh dear, so sorry Dusty, we must first ‘SAVE AS’ into a ‘TIFF’ file, before we do any more editing or before saving, silly me! Oh, but in that case, why does ‘PAINT’ include the option to save anything, if it can’t do so in a safe way? But of course, you mentioned in your second paragraph that “…They (JPEGs) are lossless if you open them and resave them …”

rts2568

Help - I'm confused.

rts2568

To Searcher
From rts2568

your item 3: certainly use low res jpgs for emailing and for posting here. Everything I've posted here has been low res' JPGs nothing more necessary. Maybe in the near future we will be able to send RAW files as easily as JPGs today.
However, don't forget that JPGs are considerably smaller and therefore quicker to manipulate in many computers still being used and as such are a good way for many to check out an image to help decide if the RAW is worth considering.

success with your aims.

rts2568

achammar Loc: Idaho

To rts2568,
I think you meant this to be for me, not Dusty.
First off, I did not say "jpegs cannot degrade."
You did not put in the complete sentance... I said "I do not want you to get the wrong idea that jpegs cannot degrade."
Now on the other hand, I see where I made a mistake that would clearly confuse someone...The very next statement:
"They are lossless if you open them and resave them"...was supposed to be "NOT lossless". That was my mistake for going to fast I suppose...nonetheless, I am sorry about that.
As for the rest of my post, I don't know where any other confusement lies. You are nitpicking every word and twisting things up and I'm not sure why, but being very sarcastic. Other than the mistake I just mentioned, I do not see any contradictions. I am very computer literate and I am also a software designer myself, but I can't imagine that what I posted is outside the realm of most users.
To reiterate..

1. There is automated software that will move or copy files. I wrote some myself that I use so I know exactly how they work and that they are safe to use, and there are plenty of other software out there. The reason I recommended not using automated software was because I didn't want to try to list which ones I know were safe to use, and that there are probably some that may not work so well, that's why I threw in "just to be on the safe side"...although there is automated software that is safe for your files.

2. I don't know why you are sarcastic by saying "Magical". There is nothing magical about copying or moving files with Windows Explorer which is what the Windows operating system uses. Maybe some of the readers don't know the difference between moving and copying (cutting or copying), so that's my bad. So for those that don't..when you move a file (cut and paste) the system does exactly that...it moves the file from where it is at, to where you tell it to move it to. The original file is no longer in it's original place. When you copy a file (Copy and paste), it duplicates the file and puts the copy in the new place, and the original is also still in it's spot, so now you have 2 copies of the same file in 2 different locations that are identical.
The reason I recommended copying then deleting over moving (and I meant this in the case if you WANT something moved and not copied) was that if Windows is in the middle of moving a file, and the power goes out, you may lose the file completly which is what used to happen. I think that may be fixed in Windows now, but I do not know that for sure, and I still would not take that chance) If Windows is copying, instead of moving, and the power goes out, at least the original will still be there.
Whether you move or copy something with Windows Explorer, the file will be an exact match of the original, no matter how many times you do it...even using the copied file of a copied file as many times as you want. That is dead truth without any doubt. So you are safe in copying ANY file as many times as you want as long as you do it manually with Windows Explorer by copy and paste, or drag or whatever method you prefer. I'm not trying to say jpegs are lossless, I am just trying to tell whoever wants to know that you can move or make copies of jpegs that will be lossless in this manner.
I'm not quite sure what I said that made you think I said you could open Photoshop on a certain operating system and save jpegs losslessly...there is no operating system that can do that.

At no time did I disagree that you can not open a jpeg in any software and resave it losslessly except in the sentence where I made a mistake which was clearly a large mistake...so, short and sweet the only 2 points I have been trying to make all along:

1. jpegs are NOT lossless, you can not open them and resave them or save as to another location losslessly...it WILL degrade every time and if you SAVE AS, it will save a new file as it is in it's current state in the program it is open in but it will degrade, even if you have made no changes.

2. You can make copies of jpegs as many times as you want over and over again a milllion times (even copies of copies) with no loss or degradation if they are not open and are copied with the operating system...ie..Windows Explorer

dachs

correct the file is the file, if not opened, and moving it may accrue corruption but that should nowadays be highly rare.
But, who amongst us doesn't open them to see what they are before moving them? If one then hits the 'save' or 'save as' button well, posterization will be your freind eventually.

The TIFF format it safer and don't re-save, better still use a Mac and it automatically keeps the original RAW, which is what you should be shooting anyway.

best regards and keep your archives as safe as you can