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What do people mean by composition?
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Mar 14, 2020 12:07:18   #
Photographer Jim Loc: Rio Vista, CA
 
selmslie wrote:
Other than an arranged still life, there is rarely a "plan" in the photographer's mind before the shutter is tripped.

With most photographs we are subject to where we are standing at the time and what equipment we have with us. After that about the only thing a photographer can do is to crop out stuff that don't want in the image. Or add elements that weren't there in the first place, but that's not my idea of photography.

The question of composition usually comes up after the image is captured. It's more often a third party, a critic, who brings it up.
Other than an arranged still life, there is rarely... (show quote)


I’m sure this fits a number of photographers but I’m not sure if it is true of the majority. I can say with certainty that mindfully considering the specifics of a composition is my normal routine, as it is for the other photographers I often shoot with. It is not uncommon for any of us to spent ten, fifteen, twenty minutes “massaging” a particular composition. Possibly, the amount of attention one applied to building a strong composition is one of the factors that separates “good” photographers from mediocre ones. ?

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Mar 14, 2020 12:13:09   #
SMPhotography Loc: Pawleys Island, SC
 
Photographer Jim wrote:
I’m sure this fits a number of photographers but I’m not sure if it is true of the majority. I can say with certainty that mindfully considering the specifics of a composition is my normal routine, as it is for the other photographers I often shoot with. It is not uncommon for any of us to spent ten, fifteen, twenty minutes “massaging” a particular composition. Possibly, the amount of attention one applied to building a strong composition is one of the factors that separates “good” photographers from mediocre ones. ?
I’m sure this fits a number of photographers but I... (show quote)


I agree wholeheartedly. But I think for some of us who have been doing this for a very long time, myself for 47 years , determinations about composition almost come automatically. As soon as I see a scene that I am interested in photographing, I am immediately thinking, vertical or horizontal, rule of thirds or centered, etc. But I still use my cards, mentioned in a previous post, to explore alternate possibilities sometimes. For me at least, and I am sure for many other people here, it just comes naturally from many years of experience of finding what works and what does not. None of us are perfect and still sometimes make images that we wish we had done things differently when we sit down to actually work the image in post, but that is still just part of the learning process. And the day when you think you have learned all there is to know about photography is the day you should sell all of your gear and go do something else.

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Mar 14, 2020 12:16:46   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
SMPhotography wrote:
So are you saying his content was good but his composition sucked?

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Mar 14, 2020 12:16:54   #
srt101fan
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
Sorry for helping lead the charge down the alternate path In UHH Photo Gallery I imagine that the majority of folks base their time spent viewing and the comments they leave on the photo's subject.

But I'm still unclear about how you're defining content. "What is it about?" is different in my mind than "here is the subject; the subject is [fill in the blank: flowers, bird, kid, tree, building]."
Sorry for helping lead the charge down the alterna... (show quote)


Good question, Linda. Points to the difficulty of addressing complex subjects with just a few words.

If someone suggests you read a certain book you might well respond "what's it about?" Yes, speaking of a photo you might well describe the content as "flowers, bird, kid, tree, building". But content can also be light, abstract shapes, blocks of color, depicted emotions, etc. In other words, what's it about? So I don't necessarily understand your perceived difference between describing a book's and a picture's content.

If somebody has you look at a picture and asks "what do you see?" how would you respond? I just thought of standing in front of Picasso's Guernica (I haven't!) and being asked to describe the content....Without knowing the background (Spanish Civil War) I might be hard pressed to come up with intelligent comments. But for sure I wouldn't start talking about composition first!

I think I'm rambling again, time for a break!

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Mar 14, 2020 12:21:41   #
SMPhotography Loc: Pawleys Island, SC
 
srt101fan wrote:
Good question, Linda. Points to the difficulty of addressing complex subjects with just a few words.

If someone suggests you read a certain book you might well respond "what's it about?" Yes, speaking of a photo you might well describe the content as "flowers, bird, kid, tree, building". But content can also be light, abstract shapes, blocks of color, depicted emotions, etc. In other words, what's it about? So I don't necessarily understand your perceived difference between describing a book's and a picture's content.

If somebody has you look at a picture and asks "what do you see?" how would you respond? I just thought of standing in front of Picasso's Guernica (I haven't!) and being asked to describe the content....Without knowing the background (Spanish Civil War) I might be hard pressed to come up with intelligent comments. But for sure I wouldn't start talking about composition first!

I think I'm rambling again, time for a break!
Good question, Linda. Points to the difficulty of... (show quote)


This is the problem with so many areas of artistic expression. You are not really dealing with "black and white" (no pun intended) concepts but with an infinite range of shades of gray.

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Mar 14, 2020 12:26:10   #
Photographer Jim Loc: Rio Vista, CA
 
srt101fan wrote:
Thank you to those that addressed the topic directly. For the many that wandered off into comments re the rules and application of the principles of composition, here’s another try at explaining my original thoughts. (Let me say emphatically, however, that the responses related to the hows and whys of composition have been very interesting and are very much appreciated!)

I admit to a personal bias: For me content (subject matter) is the most important aspect of a photograph, ahead of composition, color, sharpness and the other criteria we use to judge a image. I think of the content of a photograph the way I think of the content of a book – what is it about? Composition, stated simplistically, is the arrangement of the pieces that create the content.

So, the issue I raised is that I see lots of mention of “composition” but very little of “content” in UHH commentary on photographs. And that led me to wonder if some UHHers may be using the term composition when they really mean content or subject. (Linda asked for some examples but unfortunately I can’t point to any right now!)

Thank you all!
Thank you to those that addressed the topic direct... (show quote)


I have the opposite bias. I consider content to be somewhat infinite. Everything from the most sublime natural scene to the most mundane object can be valid content for a photograph. But in the end, how the photographer manages the composition will determine how effective the final image is. An image of Incredibly beautiful subject matter can be ruined by means of poorly thought out composition. Likewise, photos of normally mundane, “boring” subjects can yield visually stunning images that are composed well.

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Mar 14, 2020 12:28:44   #
Nicholas DeSciose
 
Go to art school and study composition for 4 years

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Mar 14, 2020 12:36:06   #
Dr.Nikon Loc: Honolulu Hawaii
 
You and; photographerjim echo my sentiments ..., that being said .., it doesn’t answer the question “what do people mean by composition” why do we need it and when to apply the rules .., and most important when/ to break the rules ..,
In simple aircraft I have known and flown for years .., I don’t use a check list ...I know what to set and what switches to click and where to set the flaps ..., I take off and know the horizon ..everything is an automatically learned procedure .. however , on performance and multi engine aircraft .., I religiously follow a check list and sometime check it twice ..
This discussion was IMHO a valuable lesson for some and the included references to articles and picture examples were well done and a reset button for a lot of us ...

Most important , The topic matter brought out the heartbeat of this forum .., you all brought it alive with an interesting resuscitation topic and the reason I enjoy being part of it ..Bump ..Bump.., Bump Bump ...

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Mar 14, 2020 12:50:35   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
srt101fan wrote:
... speaking of a photo you might well describe the content as "flowers, bird, kid, tree, building". But content can also be light, abstract shapes, blocks of color, depicted emotions, etc. In other words, what's it about? So I don't necessarily understand your perceived difference between describing a book's and a picture's content...
No, I wouldn't describe the "content" as flower or bird, I would describe the "subject" as flower or bird I'm differentiating between the definitions of subject and content and you are using them interchangeably. In my earlier photo (here), the subject is hops growing apparatus after harvest. But the content (what it is about) is hopefully something totally different.

Books - or movies - now that's another interesting side path. I know I have replied to the question, "What is it about?" with both a quick synopsis of plot, and then qualifying with a statement such as, "But that's not really what it is about".

Thanks for helping dust off the gray cells this morning and for keeping my mind off the latest coronavirus test results in Washington State!

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Mar 14, 2020 13:15:44   #
bleirer
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
Your examples are what I'd call "content" - the "what is it about" line. I guess we're getting bogged down in semantics now, or was it the OP that led us here? 😊


So, it is a bunch of colored dots in the end, but our mind strives to see people and animals especially strongly, identifiable objects somewhat strongly, but also shapes and forms, patterns, colors, textures, contrasts, all in relationships adding up to 'meaning.' What's it all about, Alfie?

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Mar 14, 2020 13:26:56   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
bleirer wrote:
So, it is a bunch of colored dots in the end, but our mind strives to see people and animals especially strongly, identifiable objects somewhat strongly, but also shapes and forms, patterns, colors, contrasts, all in relationships adding up to 'meaning.' What's it all about, Alfie?
🤗

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Mar 14, 2020 13:30:47   #
Photographer Jim Loc: Rio Vista, CA
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
No, I wouldn't describe the "content" as flower or bird, I would describe the "subject" as flower or bird I'm differentiating between the definitions of subject and content and you are using them interchangeably. In my earlier photo (here), the subject is hops growing apparatus after harvest. But the content (what it is about) is hopefully something totally different.

Books - or movies - now that's another interesting side path. I know I have replied to the question, "What is it about?" with both a quick synopsis of plot, and then qualifying with a statement such as, "But that's not really what it is about".

Thanks for helping dust off the gray cells this morning and for keeping my mind off the latest coronavirus test results in Washington State!
No, I wouldn't describe the "content" as... (show quote)


(Im enjoying this conversation. Thanks to the OP for starting the thread)

Hopefully I’m not going to far off on a tangent here. Apologies if I am.

Linda, I had a similar thought about subject vs content. Are the truly synonymous? Are they in fact different entities? This led me to consider abstracts. In many abstracts, the literal subject matter is not, or at least not immediately, obvious. I’d submit that in such cases the content/subject actually becomes the composition itself! The “content” consists of the shapes, lines, spaces, colors, textures, etc. The “subject” becomes how those elements are presented in relation to one another. ?

To illustrate, here are a few abstracts I’ve done in the past. The literal subject matter may not be immediately recognizable. I’d argue that the essence of these images is their composition, and the compositions are both the content and subject.







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Mar 14, 2020 13:34:26   #
Jim Plogger Loc: East Tennessee
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
Composition is how the content is arranged.

Content = subject + supporting (surroundings, background).



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Mar 14, 2020 13:41:16   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
Photographer Jim wrote:
... I’d argue that the essence of these images is their composition, and the compositions are both the content and subject.
Well, my brain just exploded, so thanks for that Jim 😀

Gorgeous abstracts, great food for thought. Our OP may not agree, but I believe he has hit another home run, adding to:
https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-617821-1.html
https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-607417-1.html

That second link is one thread in which I quoted you
https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-607417-1.html#10440489

.

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Mar 14, 2020 13:58:56   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
I wish you wouldn't make such generalizations, Scotty. I submit that landscape photographers in particular compose carefully, including checking the edges of their frame for unwanted elements. ....

You are referring to the difference between the vowel "compose" and the noun "composition".

Other than still life and a couple of other specialties, a photographer does not compose the way that a painter or sketcher does.

If all you did was to ensure that the edges of the frame excluded what you did not want then all you did was exactly what I described for a landscape.

You did not follow any of the esoteric "rules" of composition. You got what you saw from the location where you were standing. Nature provided the image content.

The photographer takes a 3-dimensional subject and records it in two dimensions from a specific viewpoint. The only way to change the composition is to change the viewpoint or the focal length or remove stuff that could not be avoided. That's little more than aiming the camera.

Painters have no such limitations. They can compose an image by adding or removing elements or by moving elements within the frame to create a different composition.

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